Hi Shamsi, I do understand your point of view. However, I strongly suspect that men find the damsel in distress just as sexy as the chick clad in leather. A male friend of mine sent me this comment recently, "When a woman wears leather clothing, a man's heart beats quicker, his throat gets dry, he gets weak in the knees, and he begins to think irrationally. Ever wonder why? . . . . She smells like a new truck." :lol:

I've been perusing the albums here. Some lovely armour:

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/1207.html
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/1960.html

Personally, I don't have this big Thing for Girls with Swords. But, I like girls in general, and girls that you can do your favorite pasttime along with (and talk to about nerdish sword and history trivia) is a huge pluss!

Our group has about 30-40% girls; We use the light contact reenactment style, so getting hiting hard isn't that much of an issue. As we say (loudly and proudly) the best defensive asset you can have in your line is a small girl with a shield.
(Guys with shields tend to get cocky and die.)

I have florar studs on my belt, but othervise the 13th century is pretty minimalist when it comes to frills and decorations, for both sexes, to the point where noble tunics and dresses are only distinguished by the tunic's front and rear splits.
I and several of the guys in the club DO however have a staded goal of starting a swashbuckler side project, where lace colars, high boots, and a minimum three feather panache will be mandatory...

Hi Jean, Your training observations are correct. Also, those of you that know me, know that, other than this hobby, I'm a stereotypical female. Definitely a girly girl. I'm just trying to keep this on topic. We were talking about men. ;) If only because, historically, men were the warriors. They were the ones with the hearts and flowers on their weapons and armour.

Elling, That swashbuckling project sounds terrific. I'd love to see the end result.

Nate, Ah, now we are getting somewhere! That sword is delightful!!

Again, from the albums, this romantic gentleman:

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/2977.html

Since we are off topic anyway...
We can certainly keep discussing this aspect, it's extremely interesting and fun to talk about, but let's do so via PM. I'm afraid we are veering too far off topic. Of course, we do have to talk about masculine and feminine ideals, that is what I'm thinking about, yet I would like to keep the focus on arms and armour and the decorations on them and how attitudes have changed about those flourishes.

Edited to remove embarrassing too far off topic remarks.

What we find sexy or comments about aging are indeed off-topic. Please don't go there.

On this site, even "off-topic" conversations should be related to arms & armour or its study.

Thank you.

Sorry.....my fault. I should have known better....won't happen again! :\

For "pretty" or fancy weapons and armour, here's a start:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2574

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5081

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5265

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2700

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2787

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2843

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2759

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2781

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2752

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2731

These are all from our Spotlight Topics Page.

That is a lovely start. :) I have seen most of those, though I don't recall the stirrups. I must have skipped them before. Very cool. I also love the thread on rapiers with watches in the pommels. http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...tch+rapier

Would someone like to help me with pictures of items in his personal collection that are embellished with lovely little flourishes?

On the other side of the world, the Japanese had no problem whatsoever with flowery decoration on arms and armour. Some of the most famous mons of Japanese "heraldry" were plants - the pawlonia blossom of Hideyoshi and the hollyhock leaves of the Tokugawas, to start with. Of course, the Imperial emblem is a chrysanthemum; and unlike the French royal lily, the Japanese flower is most definitely recognizable as a flower. While the Japanese blade can be a masterpiece of elegance and restraint in design, the Japanese helmet could be amazingly ostentatious, to the point of being hazardous to its wearer in battle (some, of course, were for display only).

One thing that should be mentioned is chronology; the changes in art and fashion that are being discussed happened over a long period, and not all these things changed at the same time or same rate.

Perhaps the earliest of the phenomena cited in this thread was the Scientific Revolution, which did spread ideas of mathematical precision and regularity among the populace. The timing of this change can be discussed at length (which I won't do), but certainly includes the time of Newton and on into the 18th century, when the Deist idea of Creator as the celestial clockmaker was popular. This revolution did nothing to alter the flowery and ostentatious nature of the smallsword, or of fashionable dress of the period, which included powdered wigs and lace as a matter of course.

The Industrial Revolution has also been mentioned, and started in late 18th century Britain, spreading to other parts in the 19th century. This is closer to the time of the shift in fancy dress; but dress of Regency Britain was still quite decorative for the men - bright colors, skin tight tailored pants and jackets, etc. Weapon styles are harder to track, since the wearing of personal sidearms became less popular; and military arms were generally mass produced for the army, and inherently less liable to be highly decorated. Certainly, Napoleonic military uniforms were anything but drab.

The big shift to drab dress among men of rank was, as far as I know, in the mid to late 19th century. As has already been pointed out, this coincides with the development of bright chemical dyes, which made color dressing much more affordable (the color magenta is named after a victory of Napoleon III in Italy, in the 1850's, I think.). The last bright colors used by American soldiers were the reds of the Civil War Zouaves; while the French were the last to give up bright colors on the battlefield, in early WW I.

I found some more of my favorite "pretty" weapons and armour. First up, this ornate wheelock pistol from an older Herman Historica auction. I'd love to see it reproduced but it would take a LOT of work. In this thread and this thread you'll find pictures of some magnificent arming saddles (one is even PINK and yellow :eek: ). This Harness, while not exactly "pretty" definitely falls under the dramatic category and is one I would love to own. This Harness is a replica of an original (now in the Metropolitan Museum in New York) and is beautiful in every sense of the word. The attached picture is of a Pappenheimer cavalry(?) sword that I intend to have replicated in the future.

Cheers,

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Gilt, flowers and engraving all in one package :)

Hello all!

Pamela Muir wrote:

I'd love to see pictures of your favorite pretty pieces.

Pamela,

This might not be as elaborately "pretty" as some of the examples in the links Chad posted, but I've always had a fondness for the sword found in the Collegiate Church of St. George in Cologne, number XII. 19 in Records of the Medieval Sword. The rather large pommel bears the unusual decoration of an enamelled butterfly! Yes, a butterfly! It is unlikely to be a religious or heraldic symbol, although it could be. The colours are a bit unusual (at least according to Oakeshott); white, purple, and yellow all on a dark blue ground. The butterfly is surrounded by cusped architectural designs. Unfortunately, only the borders of the design survive on the other side of the pommel. We can only imagine what was on the other side of the pommel.

I don't think butterflies could be considered masculine in the modern western world, but obviously a medieval warrior wished to have a butterfly on his sword. It's a striking design, and rather "modern" looking in its composition. It's pretty and pleasing to the eye.

I happen to like butterflies. I used to enjoy watching several different types of butterfly flitting around the yard at my previous home. We had lots of flowers and small trees, so it was a butterfly haven. Even with a biology degree and past years' experience in biology labs, I still feel a bit of magic when observing the flight of those fancy winged wonders. Maybe I'm just a bit of a romantic (or eccentric). I wouldn't mind a butterfly on the pommel of my sword (although I might want a lion instead, or at least a lion on one side and a butterfly on the other).

Here's the photo from Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword:

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Butterfly on pommel, from Records of the Medieval Sword.

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Type XII.19 from Records of the Medieval Sword.

Here's a different pic of that sword Richard is talking about.

[ Linked Image ]

Hello again!

Chad Arnow wrote:

Here's a different pic of that sword Richard is talking about.

Thanks, Chad!
I knew there was a colour photo on the cover of some book, but I couldn't remember the book's title. I've seen the cover, but never the actual book. The colour photos look much nicer than the b & w pic from Records of the Medieval Sword.

Perhaps my favorite type of armour is that found in the late 13th and early 14th century, so-called "transitional" armour. I know all-white harness is probably more effective, but some of the transitional armour must have been striking. A lot of silk, velvet, and cloth-of-gold was in use. There was a lot of use of different materials. and different layers that could all bear different bright colours.

The brass of Sir John D'Aubernoun, 1277, shows the knight in mail covered by a surcoat. The surcoat has a decorative fringe, perhaps gold or a contrasting colour. It might be hard to see in the stuff I scanned in, but Sir John D'Aubernoun has little heraldic roses on his poleyns. Furthermore, his guige strap bears a repeating decorative motif of roses and the Fylfot Cross (a "straight" swastika; a symbol signifying good fortune and long life long before the Nazis perverted it). I would not use the swastika today because of it's modern association with the Nazis, but I would definitely have a guige decorated with roses.

The brass of Sir John D'Aubernoun the Younger, 1327, has a garment over his hauberk that is peppered with flowers (probably not heraldic roses, since there are too many petals). It may be a coat-of-plates, but I have previously made the argument that it may be an "upper pourpoint", a gambeson worn over the mail. Either way, it would have been covered in rich, brightly-coloured cloth. The flowers may be either rivets, in which case they were probably gilded, or may be embroidered. This same garment displays a decorative fringe along its scalloped hem.

The brass of Sir John Creke shows a similar garment, but the flowers are more in the shape of the standard, five-petalled heraldic rose. De Creke also has some sort of fringe (possibly with tassels) around the juncture of the aventail and the bascinet rim. There is also a jewelled band just above the "fringe".

All these brasses show roses or other flowers used as decorative elements, some to a very large degree. These knights must have looked striking in bold and bright colours. Here's a link to the thread about "studded armour" where Chad posted a colour picture from Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight showing what Sir John D'Aubernoun the Younger's kit may have looked like in colour:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ht=studded

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Sir John D'Aubernoun, Sir John D'Aubernoun the Younger, and Sir John Creke. Brasses from Trivick's The Picture Book of Brasses in Gilt.

Shamsi and others who dislike the image of bounteous young women in leather or mail bikinis engaging in swordfights should find and read the short story collections edited by Esther Friesner, Chicks in Chainmail, The Chick's in the Mail, Chicks 'N Chained Males, and Turn the Other Chick. Let me just saay that they contain some uproariously funny satires on those tired old images, but the covers WILL get you odd and even hostile looks in public places. :D