I'll certainly not claim to have any actual knowledge about fight manuals. This is my chance to pick up a little knowledge however. I know in a lot of cases with historical documents the oldest surviving copy that is known to exist is just that a copy of a still older work that no one can peg an exact date on. How do we know the actual dates of the existing manuals? Is it one of those things where we know when the author actually lived so we know he had to write it between year A and year B? Are there any manuals where no one knows who the author actually is?

As a follow up question how useful are these manuals? I've always been pretty skeptical about those "teach yourself to be a ninja in 3 days" books with the little diagrams etc. Are these manuals any better? Especially when they have to be translated from another language or perhaps even an antique version of another language?

Hello Russ

Dating them is a combination of many things. Author documentation, art work, dedication, commentary in text, outside corroboration in written records, and print dates.

Thus it is more a detective story then a check of the list of books printed in year X. That said, I think we have a pretty good handle on when most where put together and how they evolved is starting to become much clearer as well.

Much of this has been the result of some high quality scholarly study by none academic sources. The development of serious study of this subject has taken great leaps in the last 15 or so years. The quality of some of the research that has been done is quite impressive even by the highest academic standards. In fact I would say some of it has more value than a purely "academic" study as the goal is understanding as apposed to gaining a degree or fulfilling a grant specifications. This has been done by those who do it purely to understand the subject better.

Now this does not mean that all of it is good. There are some who have taken a bit of knowledge and declared it to be the final, best "truth". To be honest I think anyone who says they have the full story on any aspect of this at the current time is declaring their lack of understanding. The scholars I am most impressed with are those who each time I talk with them or participate in a workshop with, illustrate what they have recently adjusted in their thinking on a particular subject as their understanding has grown. I would suggest studying with a teacher who is very well versed in a particular style and avoid tryig to do the generic historical styles. (if you are interested let me know and I would be happy to suggest some workshops)

As to the effectiveness of these systems. I would have to say my sceptism has been deeply challenged by the incredible efficiency and deadliness of these techniques when used in a consistent, well instructed, well practised and historical context. They are as effective as any other personal combat system I have participated in and some I would dare say would be some of the best of all time.

Best
Craig

Well, I don't think I can put any of that better than Craig did.

As a WMA practitioner, I always have to question whether or not my interpretation is valid. Partially I have to look at whether the techniques work, and if they don't work, I have to figure out why. It's a safe bet that if it doesn't work, I'm not reading it right.

Some of the techniques can be validated by an understanding of body mechanics and martial principles that are universal to all martial arts. Some, however, really involve not only a great deal of experimentation, but research and cross reference to other historical documents, in addition to discussion with other researchers (just like in any field). That's what makes these internet forums so wonderful: The exchange of information across the globe between like-minded individuals who otherwise have a fairly uncommon passion.

Quote:

The scholars I am most impressed with are those who each time I talk with them or participate in a workshop with, illustrate what they have recently adjusted in their thinking on a particular subject as their understanding has grown.

Absolutely! One example I'll bring up is Christian Tobler, the author of Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship. His book is a fantastic resource of practioners of medieval German martial arts, but there are some interpretations that not only do some disagree with, but that he himself has publically announced that he has changed his opinion of. He has posted on forums as well as hosted workshops where he points out what he used to think, but now based on further research, he's come to reinterpret. This is not only applaudable, but really pushes the art further.

So, Russ, in answer to your question, no, we can't know for certain that these manuals are perfect, but based off of research from multiple sources and experimentation, I think we can rediscover these arts. At the current state, we're at a point where we still have an imperfect knowledge of these martial arts, but considering how much we've learned in the past ten years or so, we're making huge strides.

Thanks for the information guys. So Craig, who do you think does a good job teaching? You can pm me if you'd rather not get embroiled in politics. I've heard good things about Bob Charon and actually made him a scabbard a couple of years ago. I'd love to do another one for him, my technique has improved just like his has. :)

Are there any manuals where no one knows who the author actually is?

I belive the Tower Of London's i.33 manuscript is anonymous & can be dated by the style of artwork, fashions and swords depicted in the manual. Please correct if I am wrong.

Yes, there are many. You are right about MS I.33. There are the 15th century German manuals Gladitoria and Codex Guelf, for example, and numerous others that do not have names other than their museum catalog numbers (such as MS 39,564).