What are the main advantages and disadvantages between chain mail and scale mail?

I have moved this topic to the Historic Arms Talk forum.

Please note the description for this forum:

"Discussions of reproduction and authentic historical arms and armour from various cultures and time periods"

Thank you.

"Scale mail" is a misnomer. There is much discussion on that term and "scale armour" throughout these forums. Perhaps another member could simply search for the important topics and post links here.

Here are two links:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=7393
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2834

And another from the Armour Archive:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42144

Further, you're suggested to read this:
http://www.knightsofveritas.org/materials/cha...ngmail.pdf

Cheers

Justin,
The more accepted term for armour made of rivetted, or a combination of rivetted and solid, rings of iron or steel is mail (sometimes spelled "maille"). The term itself is descriptive of the armour; "mail" possibly comes from the Latin "macula", a mesh or net. "Chain mail" is a misnomer perpetuated by Victorian writers and modern role-playing games.
Mail was in much more widespread use historically than scale. The Romans were thought to have adopted it from the Celts, and it remained the standard European body armour of the warrior elite up until the introduction of iron or leather reinforcements in the mid to late 13th century. Even after the introduction of the "alwyte" harness in the 15th century, mail was used beneath the plate in vulnerable spots such as the armpit and groin. Mail is a decent defense, but it tends to pull on the shoulders, and doesn't protect against crushing blows. That's why knights from at least the 13th century on would wear a padded garment beneath their hauberks!
Scale was used by the Romans (the "lorica squamata"), but mail (lorica hamata) and plate (lorica segmentata) seemed to be more popular. There are debatable examples of scale in the early medieval period, but more definite from the 13th to the 14th century. Scale could be used as a supplement over the mail hauberk; there is a mid-14th century effigy in Wales that has scale over the hauberk (seen in the Osprey book Crecy 1346: Triumph of the Longbow by David Nicolle), a late 13th century Swedish carving of the massacre of the innocents showing a soldier with scale over his mail (seen in David Nicolle's Medieval Warfare Source Book), and the effigy of Albrecht von Hohenlohe, c. 1325 shows a scale cuirass over mail (seen in Osprey's German Medieval Armies by Christopher Gravett). However, scale was never as popular as mail. Scale can be vulnerable to an upward thrust, and it isn't as flexible as mail, but a lot of this depends on how well the scale armour is made. Smaller scales, for instance, are a bit more flexible than larger scales, and the scales can be overlapped in a way that an upward thrust is not that much of a threat. (By the way, there is also a 14th century brass that shows scale armour used for the vambraces. Scale was often used for parts of armour, rather than a whole cuirass.)
I would conclude that mail is more effective than scale, just for the fact that mail was more popular among the warriors whose lives depended on their armour keeping them alive!
I hope this helps!
Stay safe!

Nathan,
It seems we were typing in at the same time. Sorry if this has been discussed before.
I get carried away with this stuff sometimes!
Stay safe!

Scale was by far the most common type of metal protection during the Bronze Age. It has turned up in virtually every metal using culture on the planet from the Aegean to the Middle East and India and Asia. Mail wasn't invented till later. The earliest finds date to around the 4-5th centuries BC in Europe.

Hello all!

Dan Howard wrote:

Quote:

Scale was by far the most common type of metal protection during the Bronze Age. It has turned up in virtually every metal using culture on the planet from the Aegean to the Middle East and India and Asia. Mail wasn't invented till later. The earliest finds date to around the 4-5th centuries BC in Europe.

You're quite right, Dan, but I assumed Justin was wondering about mail and scale in the medieval period, based on earlier threads he started. I should have specified the time period I was talking about. I have even seen a cuirass of leather scales posted on the Met web site, but I'm not sure if it's still there.
Sorry if my post wasn't clear.
Stay safe!

Yes it is still there. It is Scythian in origin and dates to the Iron Age. It is rawide, not leather.

Regarding the term "macula". It actually refers to the holes in the mesh rather than the mesh itself. The Romans had different terms for "mesh" and "net". The word was most commonly used to denote a mark or stain. I agree that it is the likely origin for the term "mail". In Italian it is "maglia" which is almost certainly a derivative of "macula".

Hello all!

Dan Howard wrote:

Quote:

Yes it is still there. It is Scythian in origin and dates to the Iron Age. It is rawide, not leather.

Dan,
Thanks for the clarification on the Scythian armour! I remember seeing it on the Met site, and being impressed by the photo, but couldn't remember the specifics. I thought it was "ancient" as opposed to "medieval", and something along the lines of armour in the "steppe tradition". I've found that many authors and curators often don't always distinguish rawhide from leather, a problem when trying to determine an armours exact composition. (I'm not saying the Met did this, I'm just stating a general observation after years of research.)
Thanks again!

I am very curious as to why scale armor was not used more often as a cuirass over mail. It has the advantage of being flexible, therefore offers superior mobility to plate, and should be superior to plate at stopping arrows if made from steel of the same thickness, as there is a good amount of overlap where the arrow would have to penetrate twice the steel to get through. A man wearing a mail and gambeson combination is already proof against upward thrusts from most types of swords, so that wouldn't seem to be a big issue.

I have also read that knights of the Teutonic order wore scale cuirasses over their mail for added mobility. Any truth to this?

It would seem that it wasn't worth the weight. The sources are very clear that some types of mail were resistant to all forms of attack. Why add additional burden for no gain? By the time that weapons were available that could compromise heavy mail, plate armour was being used.

Yes, but why plate and not scale? Even a good plate cuirass will compromise mobility, and it has to be precicely sized to work right. Some people's waistlines expand and contract significantly depending on how much they've had to eat. Scale would seem to offer the advantage of flexibility and mobility, while providing the same or better defense against missile weapons.

So why did plate win out? Easier to make?

Hello all!
Scale over mail would hinder mobility as opposed to mail by itself, not increase it! The combination could increase protection over mail alone. Mail is a good general defense, but it is not invulnerable! If it were, knights would never have added reinforcements to their hauberks!
A full breast plate, or even a coat-of-plates, may add more protection and less weight than scale, but scale was used over mail occasionally. It seems that it was especially common during the late 13th and early 14th century.
A late 13th Swedish relief carving of the "Massacre of the Innocents" in Linkoping Cathedral shows one soldier wearing scale over mail. However, you have to be careful interpreting depictions of Biblical scenes; medieval artists often depicted "wicked" soldiers in a garbled form of "Oriental," armour.
Many of the early coats-of-plates took the form of scale armour. There are a few knightly effigies that show scale over mail. There is a German effigy from around 1358 in Kirchzarten Church that appears to wear a scale coat-of-plates over his mail and beneath his surcoat (the surcoat is split up the side). The effigy of Albrecht of Hohenlohe, died 1319, also shows a scale coat-of-plates. The effigy of Frey Martin Vasquez de Acre, died 1486, shows a later example of a scale coat over mail. There is even an Iberian cuirass of scales in a museum dated 11th-13th century. A carved relief in Tuscany, dating from circa 1322-1326, shows a knight with a short-sleeved scale cuirass over mail.
Some manuscript images show scale over mail, often worn by infantrymen. At least one crossbowman in the Manessa Codex of 1300-1340 wears a scale coat over mail. An early 14th century French manuscript shows another crossbowman wearing a long scale coat over mail. The Chronicle of Alfonso X, Castile, late 13th century, shows two soldiers wearing scale over mail, a siege engineer and a heavily armed infantryman.
I hope this all helped! Scale wasn't a common supplement to mail, but it was used. I think the fact that more solid coats-of-plates or complete breastplates were preferred answers the question about the effectiveness of scale armour!
Stay safe!