I had an interested conversation with Vince Evans at the 2006 Atlanta Blade Show about the "evolution" of dirks. At Vince's display table he had two exquisite dirks (one of which insisted in leaving with me, oddly enough!!) and what is commonly called a drudgeon dagger. I commented to Vince that I would like to acquire a nice example of the latter as an early evolutionary example of the proto-dirk. Oh boy, did I ever hand Vince a line! Over the next half-hour Vince explained his view that - with due respect for Chad' excellent article herein on Scottish Dirks - dirks were more the product of particular geographical makers and local or regional styles rather than pure evolution from drudgeon to bollock to dirk. It was an interesting hypothesis and like most, the real truth is probably a mixture of both schools of thought.

This concept started me thinking. Obviously the dirks we see in major collections today are the "survivors," the artistic knives that either accidentally or purposefully were conserved in collections, etc. Now, I know from exchanging emails with Thomas MacDonald that the reserve collections in Scotland are enormous. We are all familiar with the "Dirty Dozen" in Wallace and Forman, but there have to be tons of dirks never illustrated or publically displayed.

Here is my question to the Forum' s collective brain trust: "Where are the examples of "Everyman's Dirk?" The dirks that were the work-a-day tools and common man's implements? My guess is that they were just plain daggers or long hunting knives, not what we think of as "dirks." Any ideas? What did they look like? Are there any surviving specimins? Any pictures? I'd really appreciate the help.

George

Hello, GG

That´s a very interesting question. I think, the reason, why there are elaborate and because of that very precious dirks are prevailing in the collections of the world, is, that those "high-end-pieces" of their time were not affordable for the average man. On the other hand, I guess, they might have been status symbols that were cared for. So those expensive dirks got the opportunity to survive in the protected households of privileged people, as the all-day-dirk of the farmer or whatsoever was ruined step by step in normal use. An example for that kind of dirk might be the dirk(handle) of the famous Rob Roy McGregor, that to my eyes seems to be more a whinger than a dirk.
A dirk that might have seen hard times in the hand of an average scotsman is to be seen in Mac´s album:

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/7605.html

I´m curious on other posts to this interesting point.
Regards
Thomas

Well, there's one in my closet: :D

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ht=dudgeon

See also this thread, in which I solicited examples to inform my own project:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ht=dudgeon

Although I imagined my dudgeon dagger as a (speculative) transitional form in order to explain away some ahistorical elements and fit it into the historical context, I think I took that slightly too far. I think you and Vince are right to be skeptical of the idea that one dagger form necessarily developed from another and replaced it. IIRC, there's a connection between the dudgeon dagger and the north of England.

I would otherwise just echo others in pointing out that workaday knives and daggers got rehilted and recycled until they were used up or lost. Collectors haven't always valued even plain swords, so ordinary tools were not likely to be preserved. Not being as subject to changing fashions or military technological advances, the common historical civilian knife forms often look pretty familiar to us.

Actually, Sean, that dirk is nothing to be even a bit apologetic for. I think you have the right idea and I whole-heartily agree that these dirks probably just got used up til they were nibs, just the same as a working knife today. I have seen the photo that Thomas shared before and its obvious antecedents are quite visible and striking, i.e. a broken sword blade and a cheaply made grip.

I wonder what else is lurking out there? What did the shepherd or yeoman farmer carry? What about the rear-ranker levy when the tribe was called out to repay some Campbell atrocity...opps my Jacobitism just slipped out there....??

GG

Hi everybody,

Very interesting topic! What about the pewter dirks and plainer ones like the bone hilted dirks? Are they to be considered more "working-mans dirks"?

Cheers,
Henrik

My family has a knife or dirk made by my great, great grandfather. It could theoretically be a fighting knife, but my GGG was a POW during the Civil War, so it's not likely to be a war-era fighting knife (the good people of New York no doubt felt it unwise to allow imprisoned rebs to retain their sidearms). It is known in the family as a pig-sticking knife. Most likely, he made it shortly after the war for slaughtering hogs, although one might argue that a weapon that will slaughter a hog should be sufficient to slaughter a man--see board spears). I bring it up because it could just as easily be a common dirk of a much earlier era. The blade is broad but strongly tapered to a point. Convex, symmetrical edges, cut from a sheet of thin, flat iron and is the ful width and contour of the wood grip, which is convex in its middle portion, with swellings at top and bottom. The blade is sharpened on one edge only, though it's difficult to tell because the blade is so thin. I'll guess that the blade length is ~8". It could certainly pass as a Confederate fighting knife.

Point: The process of creating a simple, all-business knife just didn't change all that much over the centuries. Some would also note that the Southeastern mountains were settled largely by Scottish and Irish immigrants who carried on Old World traditions and material culture long after they had died out elsewhere. So, you get crossbow use, 20th century mountain people singing songs about 16th Anglo-Scottish border characters, Elizabethan expressions, pronunciations, etc. Wouldn't be too surprising that some Southern dirk forms are direct descedents of the rustic dirks of England, Scotland and Ireland.

I agree, Sean, especially the version called the Arkansas Toothpick. I think everyone has the basic truth dead-on that these knives were dagger-like without most of the "finery" we see in the classic carved models. I have seen the so-called Rob Roy dirk handle but for the life of me can't figure out what the grip really looked like or what conjecture could be drawn about the blade shape.

What I would really like to know, is, does anyone have a good illustration (other than perhaps Drummond) of what one of these simple knives looked like??

GG

You might also want to look at Irish forms for clues. Here's Nathan Bell's Irish Skean:

http://www.myArmoury.com/nateb_dagg_ia_skean.html?3

I think you're right spot on, Walter, regarding the "common" dirk just being a less ornate version of the more elaborate version we see in collections today...probably so common that they did not survive or no one thought they were worth conserving for artistic or even sentimental reasons.

My comments about the Arkansas Toothpick were meant in the context of Chad's comments that what we think of as a dirk may have certain similarities to work-a-day knives in the American context. The Arkansas Toothpick was a "guarded" knife with a double-edge but I have seen Lowland Scottish "dirk/daggers" similar in basic looks. And, no, I don't think this was an evolutionary development. It is interesting though that the legal definition of "dirk" in most state concealed carry laws simply refer to a long, straight, usually double-sided blade.

As far as your comments on the pommel cap are concerned, my thought is utilitarian. The swell at the end of the grip was- in early specimens of swords and daggers- simply to keep the hand from slipping. This swell was prone to splitting and was covered by a metal cap or boss to prevent such. As time passed, they were made more ornate, etc. On longer blades, of course, the pommel cap was a counterweight for balance and handling purposes

So, let me throw this out again....does anyone have a picture or illustration of one or more of these plain dirks? Were the grips simply a cylindrical, lathed turning? I am still interested in getting someones opinion of what the Rob Roy dirk grip really looked like. I have seen the pictures but can't make heards of tails of it due to the angle. Has anyone actually seen the grip in the Argallian Collection?

Hi,

I think perhaps the discussion is getting a little off-topic..? The real question in this thread is "What did the everyman's dirk look like?" Sorry, I don't mean to ruin any fun :D

When I come to think of it, there is an interesting dirk in one of G. A. Embletons' watercolour paintings in some of the Osprey books covering the 45'. It features simple line decorations like on brass, pewter and horn hilted dirks and has a fairly simple design like on these dirks... Might the dirk be similar to the everyman's dirks? I'll try to get a scan of the watercolour as soon as possible!
And why has Mac held his silence in this discussion?!?! Mac, if you're reading this, please contribute! :D

Cheers,
Henrik

On the origin of the the disc pommel: May just be a simple solution arrived at independently by multiple cultures. I'll point out that some early 17th c. basket hilt swords feature a thick disc pommel. IIRC there were daggers in the same period using the same construction.

Hi,

Here's the plate I was referring to:
[ Linked Image ]
And here's a close-up of the dirk:
[ Linked Image ]

Cheers,
Henrik

There are many examples of plain unadorned dirks surviving, most never see the light of day as they are just that, plain.
With limited space available on the museum floors it's hardly surprising that these pieces will ever find their way out of the basement ..... and believe me, although quite interesting & effective, their crudeness hardly compares to the finely carved grips of the dirks usually featured on display.

I think you guys summed up the reasons for the lack of these about pretty well.

Mac

Right on Mac. I think everyone is in violent agreement about the plainness and utilitarian nature. However, what did the d@%& things actually look like? Cylindrical grip with no ornamentation? "Dagger" type grips? Were they carved or lathed? I have seen quite a few simple reproduction dirks made by folks just turning a round grip with pommels and sticking that on a blade. I don't mean to get pedantic or nitpicky, I was just wondering if anyone has looked at those reserve collections long enough to have some first person impressions or comments.

Thanks, Mac. I appreciate your time in answering my questions. Now a private matter: you didn't take any of your top secret "I swear not to reveal the contents of these drawers" photos, did you??????