What are folks ideas of this during the 11-13th century. I am speaking of spears used as hand to hand weapons and not so much as early lances which I imagine could have measured more than 10 feet. I know the differentiation of the lance/spear can be a bit shady during this period but I am interested in the shaft to something like A&A's 12th c. spear or viking spear. Am I correct in my thoughts that the 6 foot shafts provided may be on the short side?
Thanks,
Jeremy

The Bayeaux tapestry seems to show spears of 2 lengths: shoulder to head height, and at least a foot over head height. It's not really clear that some are intended as lances vs spears. For example, you can see a guard on a wall with a tall spear, and you can also see 2 riders who have dismounted, one has a short spear the other long.

Somehow 6 foot just seems too long to be short and too short to be long.

I like seven feet plus a few inches or so. I have no idea why I came to it like that but when I fight in a shield wall it seems to be the perfect length. The last group I participated in has a 6'6" feet for a shafted spear and it works ok. I am 6 feet plus a few fractions of an inch so my height might be part of this as well. There are some books on anglos-saxon spears by swanton that perhaps can help.

RPM

M. J. Swanton's 'Spearheads of the Anglo-Saxon Settlements' notes that surviving spear shafts from Nydam bog were between 2.52 and 3.54 meters, and were usually about 2.6 cm in diameter.

Estimates of Anglo-Saxon spear shafts based on graves containing spearheads and butt ferrules puts them at between 1.6 and 2.8 meters, with manuscript illustrations suggesting that about 2.4 meters was normal. It is likely that some of the smaller ones are intended for use as javelins, rather than close combat weapons.

This is of course earlier than the period you were asking about, and things may have changed by the 12th Century.

Thanks everyone for the replies,

I may eventually try to find a new shaft for my 12th Century Spear at maybe 7 feet as according to what I have seen (limited) and what you guys are saying this may be a more authentic length. Please continue to discuss this issue or to share what you know of the development of the spear from the viking period up through the high middle ages.

I am also curious if folks know of typical head securement methods seen on period pieces. Does it seem that spear heads relied on friction or do surviving heads show remnants of nails or other fixtures.

Lastly, does anyone know where one can get ash poles or dowels of any length?

Jeremy

For Ash or Hickory poles up to 8' long - http://www.woodenswords.com/WMA/index.htm

Good service & good products.

Keith

When i was at Hornbore Ting they (Ranrike fighting group) give the audience a 45 minutes funny lesson about how to fight
with axe, sword, bow&arrow, spear and Dane axe, they tell us how long a spear should be and that was long enough so not
a sword or a small axe can reach you +1 foot or 2 extra would be a good one, so 2,5meter or 8½ foot long would i say
by looking at the picture, a dane axe was the hard one to stop, but they did it with arrows and spears,
then they say "if you want to ask something or check out ours weapons just step forward" 50 kids was all over them in one second
and i did not have a chance to ask anything, it was warm there and they need a break to :)

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Thank you for this thread. I too have long thought that 6 foot for a spear shaft was too short and thought 8 foot would be more appropriate. Operative word here being "thought" (from someone in their first year of learning) therefore my thoughts are really questions.

So then, would the typical medieval spear be 8' 6" approximately from butt of pole to spear tip?

Also, what of the typical halberd and the glaive?


Thanks much for this thread.

Bob

I found 7 feet and a few inches very good. Once longer then you start having manuvering issue's that are similar to a pike, which in many ways is a more static weapon than a spear, (at 16-21 feet it is just hard to move well so it relys on thousands all focused in one direction, why flanking is so dangerous to pikes, everyone has to life pikes striaght in the air then turn). once past 8 feet in my experience you are not helping yourself as if in a group you are having to be catious not to beat your fellow soldiers with you and at eight feet other weapons are at bay. If dealing with cavalry this would be differenct but I have never tried to stop a cavalry charge with a spear so I cannot say for sure. The optimal size of the pole axe is I think a hand span taller than the user from what I have seen which for me also has worked well (pole axe is one of my fav weapons).
The pole weapons we have here at teh museum are usually about 5-8 feet long shafts. We have a number of pikes that change this, (our halft pike is 14feet, officers weapon). One issue is if they shafts are original?
Good post and discussion,

RPM

This depends a bit on if the spear is to be used one or two handed; so does the width of the pole.
As a rule of thumb, the maximum length of a one handed spear is where you can reach the socket when holding the spear next to you. Typically 2,3-2,4m
One handed spear also have thinner shafts, usually around 20-24mm. (There is a transition in Viking spears from early broad socketed spears to later thin socketed ones... The earlier ones are similar to the ones found in nydam)
On the other hand, byzantine skutaoi used a light one handed spear that often exeeded 4m in length... These where thrown at infantry, and thrust against horses...

Two handed spears can be longer, up to full pike lengt, depending on preference. But a spear shorter than 2,2 meters will in most cases be to short, especially if the opposition has a lot of spears as well; A short two handed weapon facing a one handed spear line will most likely be cross-strikken to death quite quickly.

If you look at the illustrations of spears in the 14th-15th century manuscripts, there are many that run ~6' (approximately the height of the wielder). These are not for shield walls, I think, instead more for individual combat. THey can be seen in Fiore dei Liberi's FLos Duellatorum, Filipo Vadi's L'Arte Gladiatoria Dimicande, the Gladiatoria manuscript, and a couple of others that I can't rattle off right now. THere are also longer spears shown, but Fiore, at least, claims a short spear to be more effective and to defend well against a longer one (he doesn't even show longer spears, except perhaps on horseback). There's an answer from outside the High Medieval period...

Keith

I will add another question to this. Does anyone have any information on the shape of spear shafts from Nydam or anywhere else? Any evidence that they taper in thickness any; say from butt to tip or from middle to both ends. That would affect the balance and wieldability of a spear considerably.

Overhand also gives you the option and the treat of throwing it and then going for a sword or other second weapon like an axe or mace or dagger.

The A & A 12th century spear is more forward balanced than the A & A Viking spear and I find that the overhand hold is easier with the more centrally balanced Viking spear.

A butt cap on the 12th century spear should bring the balance back and making it similar to the Viking at a greater total weight.

As a side note ( Opinion ):
The Viking has a thinner blade that would make it a better cutting head that the 12th century spear that has a very strong and thicker central ridge making it a more thrust specialized blade: The Viking spear is stout enough but more like a knife on a stick so some slashing would be practical.

the 12th century spear is a two handed spear, as it appears. The Viking spear might be.

One handed spears are used in mass combat; They are inferior if caught alone, but in a larger engagement, the longer range makes them very usefull. The Kingsmirror (1250) states that "A spear is worth two swords in the formation"

A fighter with a one handed spear can use his longer range to cosstrike at opponents down the line, attacking unaware targets, helping his friends, and so on.
If he is closed, he drops the spear, and draws a backup weapon, like a sword or dagger.

Two handed spears and heavy armour are even better, but before the 14th century, there wasn't enough armour around to equip armies in this fashion.

The two handed spear also offers unrivaled armour penetration. The one handed spear, in the overhand grip, also has good penetrating power, but is more clumsy.

Shields and onehanded spears are pretty much the standard armament of every army until the 13th century; the classic roman legionaries where a exception, but the romans later readopted the one handed spear, as well.

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Pettersen type D spear, 9th century, 1:1 [ Download ]

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Pettersen type K spear, 10th century, 1:1 [ Download ]

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Pettersen Type M spear, 11th century, 1:1 [ Download ]