I was wondering what would be worn underneath a padded jack. In period artwork there are a number of examples where men wear jacks for torso defense and have plate armour on the arms, in scenarios like this I would imagine a gambeson would need to be worn underneath for padding on the metal armour. Were gambesons worn with jacks? And if no additional plate or maille was worn, would the jack be worn directly over a simple shirt? Also, were most 14th century jacks long sleeved, short sleeved, or sleeveless? That would influence one's ability to wear other armour on the arms. I don't know much about padded jacks in general but I would like to know more.

A padded jack can be worn over regular clothing but if plate is worn on the limbs then an arming doublet needs to be worn so that gussests can be pointed to it. A padded jack can consist of up to 30 layers of quilted cloth. This creates a very stiff defense. If it has sleeves then they need to be significantly lighter to enable the arms to bend. During the 14th century a common combination was wearing a padded jack over a mail haubergeon. The combination was considered proof against the heaviest longbows.

Jack stuffed with maile is intriguing: This must be different than having maille between layers of fabric.

Loose clumps of maille in pockets should be very very hard to pierce as a lot of energy would be wasted just moving the loose maille around. Would old scraps of maille find their final usage as stuffing in a Jack ? Sound like a good idea to me.

So, am I right in understanding that a jack would not be stuffed with anything like a gambeson would? I can't imagine 30 layers of fabric with stuffing in between also. And when we talk about normal clothes underneath what would these clothes consist of? Would just a shirt be worn?

Chuck,
I thought when I said

Quote:

I saw one made for a museum piece

I said it was a repo. I have seen one of the originals though actually up close though, but the one I was speaking of was the repo, sorry I was unclear about that.

I am with dan on the stuffed term as well as the method of using mail inside the jack.

Randall

Randall

Quote:

yes, a jack in itself was the armour. in my 15thc reenactment i wear a pourpoint vest to hold up my hosen, then an arming doublet to tie my arms/spaulders too and then my 24 layered jack.

24 layers of what exactly? What fabric, what weight?
Rod.

Rod,

I did not say that???.....

I assume heavy weight linen and wool

Randall

Sorry, bad editing on my part. Chuck said it.
I'm interested in knowing the specific materials and weights.
Rod.

randall, sorry about that i read your post fast, it was my bad


as too my jack its 24 layers of 7.1+ oz linen its almost an inch or so thick.

now my buddy james shot his 15 layered one (4 layers of 5oz, 11 layers of 3.5oz linen with a 50 lb long bow against a tree at about 10 yards.. the bodkin went thru the front 15 layers but not thru the back.

this fall's event i plan on putting my to the test. i dont think it will pierce mine as easy as it did his.

mine:
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gal...ull/07.jpg

james's
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gal...ull/17.jpg

That's kind of a hard backing isn't it? I shot, purely for amusement, a spare costume jack sleeve (the whole about 7/8" thick) with a field point on a 500 grain shaft at 54 lb draw weight on a brand new Egertec straw boss (very hard). It went through a single layer of the opened out sleeve about 1 1/2", (1 of 7 oz linen/5 of not very dense coat wool/1 of 7 oz linen) but bounced off the second layer of the whole sleeve only dimpling the inside of the second layer.
1200 grain Standard Arrow with a sharp medium type 8 bodkin on a 3/8" ash shaft at 65lb draw weight went right on through both layers. On a softer field boss it went through about 5", on the hard straw boss it stopped it at about 2 1/4".
Didn't even bother about subjecting it to anything more aggressive.
But I am holding off on testing or conclusions until I produce something that Dan won't say is "unrepresentative".
The coat wool I have is very dense in comparison and I would use more layers especially in the body and I have some good 14 oz linen canvas.
Rod.

Chuck,
What draw weights, arrow weights and types of bodkin? Do you have pictures of the bodkins if you do not know the types?

Mail was tinned in Rome and later in Western Europe. In India and the Middle East they sometimes galvanised their mail. I'm guessing that this type of rust protection would be more common on mail that was intended to be sewn into fabric.

At his same time period the brigandine plates are being tinned so it could be possible,albeit I do not know of any examples of mail being tinned.

Randall

Is it posssible that jazerants/kazaghands were constructed in such a way as to allow the inner and outer layers to be removed periodically for the mail to be cleaned?

This illustration from the Osprey book on the War of Roses shows the purpose of a jack pretty well. Worn over a mail-shirt it provides considerable and especially affordable protection. Note the seperate arms attatched with points to the jack.
Usually the halberdier would wear additional jack-chains but these are omitted in the picture for clarity.

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