First time poster here, any information greatly appreciated.

I'm looking at making a coat of plates, circa 1350-1380, maybe German or Teutonic in flavor, patterned after a Wisby TypeIV or possibly the 'Tana' armour found at Asov. Comments on comfort/flexability of either of these would be greatly appreciated, as well as historic locations these armours might be found (I'm under the impression Wisby TypeIV to be northern German, and the Tana COP to be northern Italian).

First question is regarding material. I have easy access to some very heavy canvas (cotton), as well as some fairly heavy cowhide (estimated 14oz). Which of these materials would be most historic/period? Is there any notable differences in flexability, heat buildup, or durability? If I wasn't so lazy I expect I could come up with some very light leather (local deer hide, would have to tan it, definitely not my forte).

Next question, in regards to riveting. How big must the external 'face' of the rivet be to provide good durability? I suppose it depends upon the material used, however, are 'washers' of some sort (either leather, or metal) historically feasable? Does anyone know of a place to find 'large-headed' rivet suitable for coat-of-plate construction?

As a beginner in the whole medieval arms and armour realm, any comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Hi, Cole! Welcome to myArmoury!

Cole Sibley wrote:

I'm looking at making a coat of plates, circa 1350-1380, maybe German or Teutonic in flavor, patterned after a Wisby TypeIV or possibly the 'Tana' armour found at Asov. Comments on comfort/flexability of either of these would be greatly appreciated, as well as historic locations these armours might be found (I'm under the impression Wisby TypeIV to be northern German, and the Tana COP to be northern Italian).

Wisby Type IV has long, wide, overlapping plates if I recall correctly. Shouldn't be terribly difficult to recreate. My personal experience with armours of similar construction are that they are somewhat flexible in that they will flex at the overlaps, but not incredibly so. As such, they are moderately comfortable. If you take the time to curve the plates, it will be MUCH better.

Cole Sibley wrote:

First question is regarding material. I have easy access to some very heavy canvas (cotton), as well as some fairly heavy cowhide (estimated 14oz). Which of these materials would be most historic/period? Is there any notable differences in flexability, heat buildup, or durability?

Leather was, of course, available. Many different textiles were as well, but I am not sure about whether this would have been an obvious application. 14 oz leather seems really heavy for this, though. At this thickness, it won't breathe, will be stiff, but very durable. I want to say that 6-8 oz leather outer shell, 18 - 16 gauge plates, 2-3 oz leather or canvas or linen liner would make for a pretty good representation. For much greater (and more accurate) details, I'd look at a book called Armour from the Battle of Wisby 1361 by Bengt Thordeman. Also, I'm not an expert on the subject - there are others here who are much more up to speed on this than I am. Hopefully someone will either confirm or clarify.

Cole Sibley wrote:

Next question, in regards to riveting. How big must the external 'face' of the rivet be to provide good durability? I suppose it depends upon the material used, however, are 'washers' of some sort (either leather, or metal) historically feasable? Does anyone know of a place to find 'large-headed' rivet suitable for coat-of-plate construction?

You partially answered your own question. Yes, big enough that it doesn't easily pull back through. Rivets are pretty strong - it's not like you are securing a beam in a bridge or a bulkhead in a ship. 4-6 rivets holding a 6 oz. piece of metal to a piece of leather doesn't take much. Still, it does need to deal with the stresses of getting donned and doffed, as well as a lick or two. 1/8 inch shank should definitely handle that. The head should be big enough to give the requisite surface area, but you will want to place a washer as a backer for the side you peen it down on. You can do an online search for rivets, check with local fastener suppliers, or get some heavier nails and cut them down. Best suggestion I can give you is to play with some expendable scraps first - put a few rivets in, see how they work (and how you need to work them). Put a couple of plates side by side and top to bottom so you can see how it articulates. Yank on it, whack it. You'll learn tons in a hurry, without much investment, before you start on your actual project.

Cole Sibley wrote:

As a beginner in the whole medieval arms and armour realm, any comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Welcome to a really cool place - arms and armour are fascinating things.

I am not an armour maven, but to the best of my understanding, cloth was the usual material for this sort of armour. Cloth was certainly good enough for the later brigandines. If the coat of plates derived from an armoured surcoat, then cloth was likely the original material also.

The Armour Archive and the Arador website should be able to help considerably. www.armourarchive.org www.arador.com

Welcome aboard, Cole :)

From what researches I've done into such things (admittedly later period brigandines rather than Wisby recreations), it seems that folks have better luck and get a more accurate representation out of cut down copper nails for rivets rather than commercially produced actual rivets. If memory serves, there are also a few sources online for rivets made to the design specs of existant antique finds; a little expensive but if only the most exacting will do. . . Oh, and definitely use washers; leather isn't as cheap as it was back in the day (and scary expensive compared to steel these days :( )

Also, would you mind sharing some of your research sources on the Wisby armours? There are folks in my neck of the woods that would be interested in studying up for living history endeavors.

Thanks!

I'm afraid any research I've done has been wholly internet based, as my local county library is very small, and books are apparently very expensive as well, when so many appear so usefull :) Any thing I have would be considered woefully inadequeate by any historian or even reasonably intelligent person :)

However, in the effort to continue expanding the 'information age', I find that these two sites are not usually noted by many:

http://www.hoashantverk.se/hantverk/hoas_rustningar/index.html (modern recreations of many of the Wisby Types)

http://www.geocities.com/kaganate/tana.html (a translated Russian article of a Genoese Coat of Plates found in Asov, near the Black Sea)

Arador.com also has some excellent articles and discussions, I have seemingly misplaced any bookmarks I have from their, but the armoured Surcoat of St. Maurice, the 14th century effigies, and a forum search for 'Coat of Plates' turned up a lot of good information.

Obviously I can't verify the authenticiy of any of these sources (I'm just parroting other peoples hard work), however they offer some insights, and slightly broaden one's understanding of the possibilities.

P.S. Thanks for the information so far gents, sounds like fabric and copper are the orders of the day; which I did not realize, I thought leather/iron rivets would have been normal, but what you are saying is panning out.

Cotton is not very comon in northern Europe at the time, so I'd go for leather...

Armour form the battle of Wisby is the book you want to buy. it has i believe all 54 different Wisby coats that were dug up in it. complete with diagrams on how they were laid out etc. what you want to make it out of is a couple layers of 7 oz linen. Wash the linen first so that the weave is tight. after you cut and sew your pattern you want, use an awl to go inbetween the fibers of linen to make the rivet hole. do NOT CUT the fibers. or it will unravel and the rivet will fall out.

using cut down copper nails, roofing nails etc seems to be the norm for this project. although i have seen some regular domed rivets with washers under them used. Just don't peen your rivet down too hard and tear the linen.

Leather is very hot to wear. Thin leather will rip out just like linen will. Most SCA reenactors i believe use leather for their cops becaues its faster to make and lasts a good while under the stress of fighting If you deside to use it, i would go with nothing thicker than 2-3oz. veggie tanned.

Linen was the historical material used to cover a Coat-of-Plates. Keep in mind that unless you plan on using stainless steel (not suggested as its harder to work with) you will need to either tin or paint the plates before attaching the covering.

Here are some links to threads by professional armour smiths discussing this topic:
http://www.arador.com/discforums/index.php?showtopic=2857&hl=
http://www.arador.com/discforums/index.php?showtopic=2847&hl=
http://www.arador.com/discforums/index.php?showtopic=2847&hl=
http://www.arador.com/discforums/index.php?showtopic=73&hl=
http://www.arador.com/discforums/index.php?showtopic=833&hl=
http://www.arador.com/discforums/index.php?showtopic=504&hl=
http://www.arador.com/discforums/index.php?showtopic=355&hl=

These should be enough to get you started. You can search the forum for more information, or start an account (free) and ask any questions you can't find an answer for. We are always glad to help.

Thanks for all the help folks, very usefull, what a nice community. Excellent information in those links Chad, I had read some of them, and missed some (rather important info from Mr. Bob Reed); I'd definitely like to get registered at Arador (in fact I thought I had, apparently not yet).

Looks like canvas at this point. I simply cannot locate any linen of heavy enough quality locally (I live in a very rural area, north east Montana). Copper rivets (or cut down nails) also look to be the order of the day.

It is just a 'for-fun' hobby, no one is likely to ever see it, however for my own satisfaction I am attempting (and apparently failing :) ) to be as historical as possible. I recently purchased some 'cheap' riveted mail (my attempt at constructing mail myself failed miserably), and last fall I finished a (imho) fine longsword.

Next on my list are some 14th century gauntlets (also failed in construction) and a helm; I suppose a bascinet, as they seem to be the most common for the period.


P.S. One more question, when using the coat of plates/mail haubergeon combination, is there a garment worn Over the mail (under the cop)? I'm thinking the plates are going to have snagging problems on the mail.

if you use a sturdy enough backing material you shouldn't have much problem with the mail snagging the COP.

www.fabrics-store.com has a lot of different linen to choose from (even canvas-weight) and is very reasonably priced.

Cole, did anything ever come of this?

John

Compagniye du Chalis: 1370-1420
www.mron.org

Agree with Chad. Linen is more historically accurate for the foundation of CoPs and brigandines. Leather was rare .

Hi fellas, the shell is finished and dyed a deep blue. I had to go with cotton (canvas) as thats what I had, but I'm very happy with how it turned out, its not a direct copy of a Wisby style (as I was unable to afford the book), but it is left side opened, wrap around, fairly short waisted, and pretty well fitted.

I'm still experimenting with plate shapes and coverage, and have not taken the plunge on riveting anything yet. I also have a nice supply of heavy copper rivets that I am toying with 'stamping' a design in the head. Total weight is going to run around 20 pounds I'm afraid, mostly because I'm one of those people that over builds everything I do. I'm afraid it won't stand up to rigorous historical critique, but in my own opinion it has good historical flavor :)

Now I can't decide if I should attempt to make the actual coat of plates as 'fancy' as possible, or go simple (meaning easy) and plan on some type of jupon over that. Do I have that correct that a jupon would be the final 'decorative' piece over this type of armour (1350ish)?