Revival Clothing just put this nice little article up on how to don a 14th century harness:

http://www.revivalclothing.com/frame.php?cont...Arming.htm

Starring everybody's favorite German longsword slinger and all around nice guy Christian Tobler. :)

Hi Gents,

Thanks for posting this Bill!

Jean - We chose to show this without the mail haubergeon because it reflects how most of our recreationist customers will wear the configuration for tournament fighting. We do however mention the haubergeon in the accompanying text:

"The gambeson is buttoned shut and belted with a heavy bronze or gold plaque belt. At this point, if Christian were going to wear mail, the haubergeon would be donned. As he has chosen to forego the mail, the cuirass comes next."

If I were wearing a haubergeon, the vambraces and spaulders would most likely be pointed to it, rather than the now concealed gambeson.

It's also worth pointing out that our gambeson, like similar period garments, is a light armour in and of itself, and quite capable of providing some resistance to blows.

Here, btw, is the same harness (more or less), worn over my haubergeon:

[ Linked Image ]

The haubergeon in this case is *very* fitted (and fitted to a c.1990 155 lb. Christian Tobler, not the current 175 lb. model) and would not fit over the gambeson - any gambeson - in any case. But with the right mail, this could be done quite nicely.

Thanks for the interest guys!

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Got any more pictures of the pole arm?

I don't know about you guys, but I would want it to be a bit more loose on the skin. I mean If I was stuck in a battle for a few hours wearing that I think I would die. If it was a little bit looser I think it would be a bit more bearable and less restricting, plus the distance between the shock from the armor being struck to the body, or next layer of clothing would be even more absorbed if it was farther from the body, one would think. Who know's I'm just a newbie poster ;)

Christian;

Thanks for that pict with the maille: It looks really good on the 155 pound 1990 model. :p :cool: :lol:

In my case getting into armour without any help is challenging at my 250 pound 2006 5' 9" body ( Thankfully 25 years of weight training means that " only " 50 pounds of this is fat. :eek: So I don't quite look like the Michelin man.)

Oh, and my maille is the cheap off the rack kind.

As I own 2 of your gambison, one in natural and the other in black I'm more than happy with them and use the black one all the time as comfortable around the house wear and the natural color is the one that gets dirty under maille &/or plate.

The light gambison you make as under-armour does give some cut protection on its own ( I would be curious how it would compare to the really thick multilayered linen one though ? ) Oh, I did try putting on the two gambison at the same time and it worked well as to fit because the black one is slightly bigger even if they are both nominally the same " large " size: Actually, I'm quite happy that the natural color one is tight and the black one a little loose as it gives me interesting options.
I wonder if two gambison like this compare to one of those thick ones as to protection. I can also see wearing maille over one gambison and putting the second one over both maille and the first gambison. ( Fit might be too tight for this unless I got the extra large for the outside gambison. )

I did read somewhere that with maille using the point on the foundation garment is better than pointing directly to the maille: This wasn't explained how that would be accomplished ? I imagine that the squire helping the Knight to arm himself would pull the points attached to the gambison through the maille links maybe using some sort of blunt tipped hooked needle to fish out the point strings between the links of maille.

In many cases pointing directly to the maille should work just as well and be much easier to do with no help.

Not using maille in your example was a good idea in any case since, as you said, most people will wear plate without the maille hauberk. Oh, one thing that I think would cover the " essentials " :p would be a maille skirt covering from the bottom of the breast plate to half way to the knees or a plackard with fauld and tassets: This last would be more 15th century I believe or late 14th.

The pourpoint seems like a more comfortable option than the wide belt I use currently: This works but annoying to wear for extended periods.

Christian, if you don't mind my asking, how do you have your scabbard suspended from your plaque belt in the photo with your haubergeon? Also, is the closure on the plaque belt a hook and eye of some sort, or is it buckled with the buckle turned to the back?

Jean, you were right the first time as to pointing when using mail; the points are pulled through the mail from the foundation garment. Pointing directly to mail may work, but keep in mind that any time your mail slides, whatever is pointed to it will slide - invariably into the worst possible position it can be at the time, as mail by design in meant to move :lol: . Assuming your arming clothes are well fitted, they aren't going anywhere when you move which gets back to the purpose of pointing the harness to them rather than (as Christian pointed out) constrictively buckling straps to hold it all together. Think of your points as holding your armour to your body (weight wise and most of the positioning) while your straps are for fine adjustment to keep everything in line while you are moving around in it.

Hi Jonathon,

Jonathon Janusz wrote:

Christian, if you don't mind my asking, how do you have your scabbard suspended from your plaque belt in the photo with your haubergeon? Also, is the closure on the plaque belt a hook and eye of some sort, or is it buckled with the buckle turned to the back?

I don't mind at all - we're pleased to generate the interest!

First, the plaque belt I'm wearing in the order picture with the mail haubergeon is a junky affair from Museum Replicas that I made due with back then. It has a homemade frog style rigging for the scabbard.

The new one is a lovely brass creation, enamaled with black and gold, from Anshelm Arms. It doesn't have a sword attachment and I'm still debating whether to cook up one or use a separate thin sword belt along with it. Both solutions are documentable. In the case where scabbards attached directly to the plaque belt, some sort of hook, or two descending short chains were used to affix it to the belt.

Quote:

Jean, you were right the first time as to pointing when using mail; the points are pulled through the mail from the foundation garment. Pointing directly to mail may work, but keep in mind that any time your mail slides, whatever is pointed to it will slide - invariably into the worst possible position it can be at the time, as mail by design in meant to move :lol: . Assuming your arming clothes are well fitted, they aren't going anywhere when you move which gets back to the purpose of pointing the harness to them rather than (as Christian pointed out) constrictively buckling straps to hold it all together. Think of your points as holding your armour to your body (weight wise and most of the positioning) while your straps are for fine adjustment to keep everything in line while you are moving around in it.

Boy, I'd like to know how you pull those points through, especially if it's the 8mm or smaller ID links of period mail. I've pointed stuff to mail before though, and if the haubergeon is fitted (and it *must* be to go under the very fitted plate armour we see from the period), it isn't going to slide around at all (mine doesn't).

Remember, effigies and iconography show a very slim line. Even if this is exaggerated a little for style, they must've achieved a good fit, based upon surviving vambraces and such. This is one reason we went with less padding and a tighter fit when we designed our linen gambeson, which ultimately completely supplanted our earlier, and bulkier, cotton version.

All the best,

Christian

Al,

Thank you very much for your very thorough information. I think Greg knew what the theory was on coode, but may be under the impression that the word's exact meaning is obscure. I'll point him to this thread and perhaps we'll do a little tweaking on the article.

All the best,

Christian

Hello back, Christian. Thanks for your replies :)

I see your point when looking at 8mm or less ID links. I always kind of pictured either using a larger diameter link in places or the resourceful use of idle rings to solve the problem. Maybe someone who has had more experience with historical mail samples can shed some light? This may sound like a silly little detail, but c14th arms and armour are some of my favourite to study. I am very excited to hear your input :cool:.

When you discuss having such a tight fit on your haubergeon, I completely agree with you on the slim outline and the choice of minimal padding. Between a pourpoint of a couple layers and a gambeson of a couple more, I've been thinking that there is plenty of padding there; especially as a comfort-adding device for arguably in some cases two complete harnesses. The thing about the mail in this case that has bugged me is the sleeves. Assuming, for sake of discussion, that one has full (or nearly full) length sleeves beneath a set of plate arms, how does one judge the fit? Too tight and the mail is at full stretch constantly and mobility at the elbow suffers; too loose and you are hard pressed to find somewhere to go with all the mail while maintaining the slim profile you're after with the plates. Further, if the mail hangs a little loose the plates (I would think the spaulders some of the worst offenders) have a chance to go all sorts of odd ways if pointed to the mail alone? Or am I over thinking this and the padded foundation fills out the very slightly loose mail to "snug" which allows the plates to settle comfortably and not wander around? Was any (intentionally designed) slack in the mail taken up by gartering it in places as was seemingly done in earlier times, in this case beneath the plates?

This discussion is excellent in that these "how does it work" kind of questions are some of the most prevalent it seems from observers when attending events, and the academic things we learn are always more strongly supported with real-world experience. Great stuff!

Hi Christian,

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:

Boy, I'd like to know how you pull those points through, especially if it's the 8mm or smaller ID links of period mail. I've pointed stuff to mail before though, and if the haubergeon is fitted (and it *must* be to go under the very fitted plate armour we see from the period), it isn't going to slide around at all (mine doesn't). Remember, effigies and iconography show a very slim line. Even if this is exaggerated a little for style, they must've achieved a good fit, based upon surviving vambraces and such. This is one reason we went with less padding and a tighter fit when we designed our linen gambeson, which ultimately completely supplanted our earlier, and bulkier, cotton version.

I'm curious as to how you fit mail this closely. Pretty much all of the hauberks and build instructions I've seen are very basic shapes.

Do you have any resources you can point to which document how to build a fitted hauberk? Are the sleeves laced closed in any way?

The major place I can see this being a major issue is with the pointing of the forearm and elbow defences. Is this possibly why we see short sleeved hauberks which go over the upper cannon of the arm defences but under the spaulders? This would allow the forearm defences - arguably the most critical pieces of armour to not have swing around - to point directly to the aketon.

Thanks.

Hi Christian,

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:

Thank you very much for your very thorough information. I think Greg knew what the theory was on coode, but may be under the impression that the word's exact meaning is obscure. I'll point him to this thread and perhaps we'll do a little tweaking on the article.

You're most welcome. Be aware that while I think that information is pretty accurate it is just a brain dump :) Marc's website has a bunch of properly cited information.

If there's text in that post you feel you can use, go ahead.

Jonathan;

With my VERY limited experience wearing armour I can say that with my fitted gambison under the mail the plate vambraces don't seem to want to move or shift at all.

When putting everything on it seems, with my cheap un-tailored maille, the only problem area is under the armpits so one thing I try to do is to pull the full sleeves back a bit before I strap down the vambraces tight so that the maille has some loose in the upper arm region: The tightened down vambrace seems to help keep this looseness in place as opposed to when wearing maille alone the weight of the maille sleeve tends to pull this looseness out.

It's a bit like when wearing a belt with maille, you blouse the maille a bit before tightening the belt, in a way I mean to say you blouse the maille sleeves before tightening the vambraces. This blousing should also be done before tightening a breast and back plate, this is difficult without some help or doing strange stuff like lying down so that the maille shirt isn't being pulled by gravity before one can tighten the B & B plates. Oh, and tucking in the armpit area of the mail shirt so that the B & B plates can be tightened is very challenging without the assistance of another person. I keep having to find such weird & creative tricks when I try to use a new piece of armour for the first time. :eek: :lol:

Jean, thanks for your insight. I hadn't thought the plates would, very basically, take the place of some of the garters used in earlier periods; you just get some free additional defense in the deal :D .