I was just wondering what some of you would recommend as a good beginners longsword, i´m deciding betwen either one of the beautiful swords from Albion Swords or one from Pavel Moc.
Wich one would you say be the best and most priceworthy of these two? Am thinking in lines of how long it will last and the quality of the sword.
Thanks in advance and sorry for my bad english, is to tired at the moment to spell correctly....
Hi, Mathias, and welcome!
In order to better answer your question, it would be useful for us to understand more about what your intent for the sword is. What I mean is, do you plan on simply displaying it, cutting with it, sparring with it, reenacting with it...
I'm not able to give a fair direct comparison between Pavel Moc and Albion, since I have not ever seen a Pavel Moc piece. Reviews from others have generally been favorable, though. Two of his pieces are reviewed in the forum's Reviews section: "Italy Sword" and "Violet 1 1/2 Bastard Sword" and I have heard from others who have handled his pieces before, though I cannot point you to reviews.
Albion, on the other hand, I am quite familiar with. I've handled nearly their entire available line, and own (and regularly handle) 10 different swords from the Next Gen or Museum lines. Again, a large portion of their offerings are reviewed in the forum's Reviews section, and a search on the site for any of the sword names would yield a significant number of hits. Of the semi-production/production swords that I have handled over the years, in the Dark Ages/Medieval arena, Albion is by far the best - my not-so-humble opinion. :D The longswords that I currently own are the Brescia, Regent, Landgraf, and Mercenary. Each of these are excellent examples of their type, well-executed, and quite solid. Each is also quite different from the others. Of these four, the Brescia is my favorite to practice and cut with - there's a strong connection and comfort level I have built with this piece. The Regent is a close second... My primary interest is in the German schools of longsword, and both of these seem to be excellent for this study. I have also used the other two, and have found them to also be very well-suited.... I would not consider sparring with them, would not use them in staged/choreographed combat, though - they're quite appropriately real, with all the inherent dangers. I might consider using the Squire Line pieces or (when they do come out) definitely would use the Maestro Line pieces for that purpose, or would use a waster or padded sparring weapon designed specifically for that purpose.
This is just my opinion, though... I'm sure others will voice theirs.
In order to better answer your question, it would be useful for us to understand more about what your intent for the sword is. What I mean is, do you plan on simply displaying it, cutting with it, sparring with it, reenacting with it...
I'm not able to give a fair direct comparison between Pavel Moc and Albion, since I have not ever seen a Pavel Moc piece. Reviews from others have generally been favorable, though. Two of his pieces are reviewed in the forum's Reviews section: "Italy Sword" and "Violet 1 1/2 Bastard Sword" and I have heard from others who have handled his pieces before, though I cannot point you to reviews.
Albion, on the other hand, I am quite familiar with. I've handled nearly their entire available line, and own (and regularly handle) 10 different swords from the Next Gen or Museum lines. Again, a large portion of their offerings are reviewed in the forum's Reviews section, and a search on the site for any of the sword names would yield a significant number of hits. Of the semi-production/production swords that I have handled over the years, in the Dark Ages/Medieval arena, Albion is by far the best - my not-so-humble opinion. :D The longswords that I currently own are the Brescia, Regent, Landgraf, and Mercenary. Each of these are excellent examples of their type, well-executed, and quite solid. Each is also quite different from the others. Of these four, the Brescia is my favorite to practice and cut with - there's a strong connection and comfort level I have built with this piece. The Regent is a close second... My primary interest is in the German schools of longsword, and both of these seem to be excellent for this study. I have also used the other two, and have found them to also be very well-suited.... I would not consider sparring with them, would not use them in staged/choreographed combat, though - they're quite appropriately real, with all the inherent dangers. I might consider using the Squire Line pieces or (when they do come out) definitely would use the Maestro Line pieces for that purpose, or would use a waster or padded sparring weapon designed specifically for that purpose.
This is just my opinion, though... I'm sure others will voice theirs.
Thanks for the reply, i should have mentioned that it´s use is gone be for sparring and practice.
I have looked in to the Albion line and i really love the Talhoffer model, but i don´t know if it´s a bit of blasphemy to order it blunted and used in sparring? What do you guys say?
I have looked in to the Albion line and i really love the Talhoffer model, but i don´t know if it´s a bit of blasphemy to order it blunted and used in sparring? What do you guys say?
for use, lets see. i totally love my lutel for later time periods. but for earlier you CAN NOT beat a paul binns.
Mathias Andersson wrote: |
Thanks for the reply, i should have mentioned that it´s use is gone be for sparring and practice.
I have looked in to the Albion line and i really love the Talhoffer model, but i don´t know if it´s a bit of blasphemy to order it blunted and used in sparring? What do you guys say? |
By "practice", I assume you mean learning forms and such, not cutting. You could use a blunt for both, but I'd want to make certain it still closely approximated the handling characteristics of a period weapon. Is it blasphemy to request a Talhoffer for this purpose? My opinion, no, of course not... but I would suggest you consider how blunt you would require the piece to be to be safe (enough). I'm going to "think out loud" here for a minute, hopefully my thoughts will be conveyed in a coherent, useful manner...
I've seen a couple of the Squire Line pieces - default is unsharpened, though they can be if requested. My guess is, a Next Gen requested to be left with a dull edge would have a similar thin edge to it. Also, the Talhoffer, sharp or not, would still have a pretty scary point.
Fellow Forumite and Swordsman, Anton de Vries has sparred with a Squire Line 15th C Bastard sword, and relayed his thoughts in this thread: Albion NG Mercenary vs SL Bastard aka "The Twins"
Sparring obviously has some degree of risk associated. Raising the stakes with steel over wood wasters or padded weapons does bring you a lot closer to actual armed combat, but also necessitates additional protection - something I don't know if you had considered or have already taken care of. An interesting thread on protective equipment and training methods is here: Helmets for WMA sparring.
I am currently sparring only with wasters, and practicing forms and cutting with sharps. The limiting reason for this is the lack of sufficient armour for my sparring partner, but also, we are getting enough out of this method for the time being. I also would prefer to use a sword that was designed to be used as a training tool. For me, I believe that Albion's Maestro Line will fill that need really well. A good discussion of the philosophy and differences of the Maestro Line vs the other Albion lines can be found in this thread (read through, pay particular attention to Peter Johnsson's postings): Albion's Sparring Line. I know that there is not a sword that looks just like a Talhoffer in the Maestro line, but the handling and nature of the Liechtenauer probably would match up pretty well with it. Hopefully, these first three of the line will be coming out in the not-too-distant future - I know they're still being worked hard in Albion's R&D.
Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
Fellow Forumite and Swordsman, Anton de Vries has sparred with a Squire Line 15th C Bastard sword, and relayed his thoughts in this thread: Albion NG Mercenary vs SL Bastard aka "The Twins" |
Nice coïncidence: lately I've done quite a bit of steel-to-steel with the SL Bastard. My 'opponents' mostly use Pavel Moc swords.
I like Pavel's work. They look good, feel good and they're sturdy.
I do feel they're a bit 'floppy', a common occurence with blunt practice/reenactment weapons, but not excessively so.
My Albion does have better balance and better temper. I think it will outlast the Pavel Moc swords. The price reflects this of course.
The Albion is a bit sharp and not every WMA school/reenactment society will allow them, so f you want an Albion you should check with your teacher.
If money isn't a problem I'd go for the Albion, but the Moc swords are okay too.
Blunt Talhoffer sounds great to me.
I'm waiting for the Fiore myself but if that one disappoints I'll go Talhoffer too. Blunt AND sharp.
Anton de Vries wrote: |
Nice coïncidence: lately I've done quite a bit of steel-to-steel with the SL Bastard... |
Thanks for the input and update... been meaning to ask how things have been going. Figured you'd be around... ;)
Not too surprising to you I'm sure, Anton; I'm feeling the same way - Fiore seems the most appealing to me if it comes out like I have envisioned it will... but if it doesn't grab me, I'd likely go Talhoffer. For me, it's the grip...
Thanks for you´r input, i really value your advice. I will think it over and talk with my traineer what he thinks.
Will tell you later where the decision whent:)
Will tell you later where the decision whent:)
Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | ||
Thanks for the input and update... been meaning to ask how things have been going. Figured you'd be around... ;) Not too surprising to you I'm sure, Anton; I'm feeling the same way - Fiore seems the most appealing to me if it comes out like I have envisioned it will... but if it doesn't grab me, I'd likely go Talhoffer. For me, it's the grip... |
Hi Aaron,
I'd bet that the Talhoffer blunted would still be way too dangerous for any freeplay. Even the Squire line Bastard Sword has thin edges and an accute point. Anyone training with this sword should be cautious. Too bad the Maestro line isn't out yet.
Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | ||
Thanks for the input and update... been meaning to ask how things have been going. Figured you'd be around... ;) |
Of course I'm around. I don't have a life. ;)
Anyway: the Bastard holds up really really well (unless the opponent is that maniac with the 5 pound crowbar) and will no doubt last a really long time. Of course it's full of nicks and scratches, but nothing major. Looks good actually.
Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
Not too surprising to you I'm sure, Anton; I'm feeling the same way - Fiore seems the most appealing to me if it comes out like I have envisioned it will... but if it doesn't grab me, I'd likely go Talhoffer. For me, it's the grip... |
Grip. Waist. There is a semi-subconscious element here.
Peter J. mentioned that it may be possible to fit the Fiore grip to the Agincourt, and perhaps the same thing is possible with the Talhoffer.
We'll see how it turns out. I'm sort of glad Fiore got postponed because armor has a higher priority right now.
Gary Grzybek wrote: |
Hi Aaron,
I'd bet that the Talhoffer blunted would still be way too dangerous for any freeplay. Even the Squire line Bastard Sword has thin edges and an accute point. Anyone training with this sword should be cautious. Too bad the Maestro line isn't out yet. |
I'm in total agreement - never really liked to spar with anything with a tip with less than the radius of a dime. In my response above, I said:
Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
I've seen a couple of the Squire Line pieces - default is unsharpened, though they can be if requested. My guess is, a Next Gen requested to be left with a dull edge would have a similar thin edge to it. Also, the Talhoffer, sharp or not, would still have a pretty scary point. |
Good thing, though - the Maestro Line is actively being worked - it's not a stagnant project. Hopefully sometime fairly soon, we'll get an official update. That'll definitely help a lot of us out. I need to start tucking my spare change away, actually, so I'll be prepared when they do come around. That Liechtenauer has my name all over it.
Personally, for training and bouting, I'd consider A&A's offerings:
[ Linked Image ]
#187 Fechtbuch Sword
[ Linked Image ]
#203 Fechterspiel Sword
[ Linked Image ]
#187 Fechtbuch Sword
[ Linked Image ]
#203 Fechterspiel Sword
Let me say that the fechterspiel is probably the best blunt I've ever used. It's not cheap, but it is absolutely worth every penny. Wide enough edges, tapers enough to have some flex on a thrust, lively in the hand, feels like a realistic sword. I find these better than aluminum wasters for bouting, too, though obviously aluminum is much cheaper.
Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
never really liked to spar with anything with a tip with less than the radius of a dime. |
I own one of these as a loaner sword, and so does one of my students. We use bird blunts on the end, the same things rapier fencers use. They're the rubber tips for arrows for hunting small game. They make a big difference, and are perfect for swords with smaller tips.
Bill Grandy wrote: |
I own one of these as a loaner sword, and so does one of my students. We use bird blunts on the end, the same things rapier fencers use. They're the rubber tips for arrows for hunting small game. They make a big difference, and are perfect for swords with smaller tips. |
Sorry, Bill... you own one of which as a loaner?
I'm familiar with the bird blunt - I use those on the tips of swept-hilted schlagers - they work really effectively, and they do bring the tip well into my comfort zone - actually, it creates a tip that has a cross section of roughly the face of a dime. This is a very good suggestion as long as the smaller tip isn't TOO acute such that it could pierce the blunt even unsharpened. Think it would work with these needle-like XV or XVIII swords?
Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
Sorry, Bill... you own one of which as a loaner? |
Sorry, I meant I own one of the Albion 15th c. bastard swords. The tip isn't so acute to puncture a bird blunt, in fact, it's also thicker than a typical schlager or Del Tin practice blade, so it's not really a worry.
Anton de Vries wrote: |
Of course I'm around. I don't have a life. ;) |
:lol: Good one.
Anton de Vries wrote: |
Anyway: the Bastard holds up really really well (unless the opponent is that maniac with the 5 pound crowbar) and will no doubt last a really long time. Of course it's full of nicks and scratches, but nothing major. Looks good actually. |
I'm glad to hear this - great that the piece is serving you well. If the Maestros hold up equally or better...
Anton de Vries wrote: | ||
Grip. Waist. There is a semi-subconscious element here. Peter J. mentioned that it may be possible to fit the Fiore grip to the Agincourt, and perhaps the same thing is possible with the Talhoffer. We'll see how it turns out. |
You may have a point. ;) Honestly, I really like that same style grip on both the Regent and Castellan... looking forward to the Munich and another little surprise I have in the works... The fitting of the Fiore grip on the Agincourt would be a great solution for me, if it doesn't affect the dynamics of the piece outside of an acceptable limit.
Anton de Vries wrote: |
I'm sort of glad Fiore got postponed because armor has a higher priority right now. |
After the Munich, I think it'll be a while before I can get another sword... same reason. The sacrifices we make, my brother... ;)
Gary Grzybek wrote: | ||||
Hi Aaron, I'd bet that the Talhoffer blunted would still be way too dangerous for any freeplay. Even the Squire line Bastard Sword has thin edges and an accute point. Anyone training with this sword should be cautious. Too bad the Maestro line isn't out yet. |
I would recommend against sparring with a Talhoffer, even if blunted; I say this as a Talhoffer owner. It's blade (especially as you examine it closer to the tip) isn't intended to be blunted in my opinion. Its point is almost like a needle! Plus, the type of swordsmanship you would employ with a sword like the Talhoffer (or anything with a Type XVa blade) calls mostly for thrusting. My advice? Wait for Albion's Maestro Line swords to come out. Also, you may want to consider practicing with wasters (wooden swords). I hope this helps. Safety first. -Ted
To beat the topic to death, I too would suggest that you not buy a blunt NextGen. I seem to recall reading somewhere on Albion's website that the NextGen line is designed to be handled sharp, and blunting it isn't enough of a safety precaution, and in addition would change the handling (not sure on the last part). I get the feeling that they offer the blunting option for collectors who don't want the liability of a sharp sword falling and cutting something/one, rather than to make the sword safe for practice.
While I'm at it, I would like to say that I have exactly one Albion sword (the Crecy) at the moment, but my next one will definately be either the Talhoffer of the Thegn.
While I'm at it, I would like to say that I have exactly one Albion sword (the Crecy) at the moment, but my next one will definately be either the Talhoffer of the Thegn.
Edit: Nathan already made my point, so nevermind!
On another note, I realize that Albion has been releasing some killer stuff lately, but lets not forget other quality makers in the wake of the excitement. Promoting competition is a truely good thing for the sword collector, after all.
On another note, I realize that Albion has been releasing some killer stuff lately, but lets not forget other quality makers in the wake of the excitement. Promoting competition is a truely good thing for the sword collector, after all.
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