HMMMMMM: Something reality based about the old Knight against Samurai that everybody seems to agree is a " Newbee " question and supposed to be a waste of time discussing :eek: :cool:

This would seem like a real fight between competent European style and Japanese styles of weapons and martial arts.

What I wouldn't give for a time machine and be able to video that fight.

So maybe a discussion of Knight vs. Samurai is not necessarily silly, only that they usually end up that way.

I've split this of from the original thread so that it can be discussed without derailing the original thread.

What are the sources on this?

Tyler,

Tyler Weaver wrote:

Quote: In addition, the use of espada y rodela figures into one of the early instances of WMA vs. AMA, when the Portugeuse Andrea Pessoa used his sword and target to good effect against samurai who were boarding his carrack, the Nossa Senhora de Graca, in 1609. Pessoa's ship finally succumbed to fire, but he killed several samurai in that action. I wonder how well the rest of the crew did. ;)

Pretty good, actually, until fire became an issue. ;)

Quote:

That said, seriously, I would like to hear more about this engagement. If he was in action long enough to kill several samurai in the fighting (assuming it's not exaggerated), that must have been one hell of a battle on the decks. It also brings up the interesting question of a katana vs. sword-and-target fight - speed, power and leverage versus reach and solid defense.

The incident took place in Nagasaki (in Jan. of 1610--my mistake), and started with difficulties between Pessoa and the local governor. This became more heated when it was learned that Pessoa--when he was governor of Macau--had killed a group of Japanese sailors there, only a few months before. Ieyasu then responded with an order to kill Pessoa and take his ship.

The first attack involved 1,200 samurai in thirty boats, that attempted to board the Portuguese carrack in a night assault. The Japanese were overconfident, and shouted insults at their enemy, thus giving away the surprise. Pessoa's gunners cut loose with 2 broadsides, and that ended the first attempt.

The Japanese tried the same thing for 3 nights in a row.

The final assault made use of a sort of naval siege tower mounted on two larger vessels, as tall as the mastheads of the Nossa Senhora de Graca. A further 1,800 samurai were hired for this attack. Some warriors managed to board the carrack, but they were cut down by the Portuguese. It was at this phase of the fight that Pessoa is said to have killed a couple of samurai himself. Unfortunately, an accident involving a Portuguese grenade hit by Japanese musketry caused the mizzen sail and surrounding works to go up in flames, and soon the rest of the ship was burning. Realizing that all was now lost, Pessoa set fire to the powder magazine, and blew up the Nossa Senhora de Graca.

Again, check out Giles Milton's Samurai William, which chronicles the story of William Adams, the first Englishman in Japan (and the inspiration for the Blackthorne character in Shogun).


It should be pointed out that the action between Pessoa and the Japanese at Nagasaki was not the first one between European and Japanese fighting men.

In 1574, a group of wako (Sino-Japanese pirates) under the Chinese leader Lim-Ah-Hong and his Japanese partner, Sioco, attacked Spanish-held Manilla with 62 armed junks and about 4,000 warriors. They were ultimately defeated by a combined force of Spanish regulars and Pampangan mercenaries (there were usually comparatively few Spanish troops in the Philippines at any given time), under the command of Juan de Salzedo, the so-called "Cortez of the Philippines". Keep in mind that this was hardly a one-sided affair; the wako were well equipped with both arquebuses and even artillery for their ships (the Spanish initially thought they were under attack by a Portuguese squadron). There was plenty of HTH action too. A basic account of this action can be found in Mark Wiley's Filipino Martial Culture. Detailed period Spanish accounts can be found in the 55-volume series, The Philippine Islands 1493-1898, edited by Emma Helen Blair and James Alexander Robinson.

In the 1580s, the wako attacked again, but were again driven off.


In 1604, a group of English "Sea Dogs" in a small galleon, the Tiger (commanded by Sir Edward Michelbourne), encountered a wako junk ("a junk of the Japons", as Michelbourne put it). Ostensibly it was a friendly meeting, between pirates from East and West. The wako we allowed to board the Tiger, drinks were exchanged, etc. Suddenly, the Japanese turned on the English, and killed many of them with their swords. It looked as if the Japanese might have taken the Tiger, but Michelbourne rallied his men, and they used pikes with which they "killed three or four of their leaders", while the rest of the Japanese on board were driven into a cabin. The English then turned two 32-pound culverins on the cabin, and blasted the Japanese at point-blank range. Michelbourne commented, "Their legs, armes, and bodies were so torne, as it was strange to see how the shot had massacred them".

Consult Giles Milton's Nathaniel's Nutmeg, or, The True and Incredible Adventures of the Spice Trader Who Changed the Course of History, for more on this incident.

Best,

David

P.S. I wouldn't categorize a theoretical "katana vs. sword-and-target fight" as one of "speed, power and leverage versus reach and solid defense", since the single-handed espada certainly possess "speed" too.

David,
Many thanks for the write-up, very interestign reading. The English use of those culverines certainly brigns a new meanign to "point-blank range".

/Daniel

So, we've covered the history of early European-Japanese conflict; now it's time to address some of the rumors.

The most noteworthy one I can currently think of appeared in the March 2005 issue of Black Belt magazine, in a knife fighting article/interview with Cold Steel founder Lynn Thompson. Thompson claimed:

A lot of people think that swordsmanship is all Oriental. What they forget is that when the Portuguese showed up in Japan, there were a number of duels where Portuguese swordsmen equaled or bested Japanese swordsmen.

This is a notion which has floated around the internet for at least the past several years. Thompson unfortunately didn't give any sources for his statement, and I have been unable to veryify such claims. We know quite a bit about the various battles which took place--battles which of course included the use of hand weapons like swords--but, as for individual duelling situations, the picture isn't nearly so clear. I'd love to find out more about all of this.

One thing that Mark Wiley noted in Filipino Martial Culture is that the wako attack in 1574 was the first time that the Filipinos had seen kenjutsu--the Japanese method of swordsmanship. It was also the first time in which the Filipinos had engaged in HTH combat with the Chinese (2/3 of wako manpower at this time was Chinese). What was new for the Filipinos was obviously new for the Spanish as well, at this time. Period Spanish accounts describe both the Japanese and Chinese with respect (in terms of their fighting ability), but it's also worth noting that they weren't regarded as any sort of supermen, either. Certainly, the Spanish didn't change their tactical methods to any appreciable degree--we read of Spanish galleys attacking Asian pirate ships, with plenty of HTH boarding action, in the old Spanish style.

In more modern times, maestro Ramon Martinez noted that, in the early 20th century, the great fencer Julio Castello used a saber to defeat a nameless kendoka in a friendly match, but, aside from that, I have no details as to the rules that the bout was fought under, etc.

I don't have anything to add. I just wanted to chime in with "interesting", and a thank you. It is great to see thoughtful threads like this. Thanks again :) .

Antonio,

Thanks for posting the link to that article.

There's lots of interesting stuff there, though I have to question some of the figures claimed for artillery--eg., nobody was firing off their guns at 1,800 meters back in those days. Also, breechloading cannon were not unique to the Portuguese.

What the Portuguese did do, however, was mount heavy "ship killing" guns on their vessels (stone-firing camelos), and they were the first naval power that made use of standoff gunnery, in the early 16th century. By using this long-range tactics, they were able to compensate for their chronic lack of manpower.

Nevertheless, it is still interesting to note that many Portuguese troops in Asia were still armed and equipped as close combat troops (halberdiers and targetiers), even in the early 17th century.

Best,

David

David,

I will be the last person to argue with you. :)

Cheers.