Gordon,

Gordon Frye wrote:

David; Glad that you are recuscitating this thread as I rather enjoyed it!

This was a killer thread, on an equally good site (a newb's enthusiasm perhaps, but that's how I feel thus far).

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I certainly won't disagree with you at all about the rodeleros continuing to be used for another century, albeit in fairly limited numbers for the most part. And I agree completely with you about their efficacy in regards to weapons other than Halberds, be they pikes, katanas or maquahuitl... or pistols, for that matter. On anything approaching one-on-one, such a defensive weapon is invaluable, especially in the hands of one who knows it's full employment! And I shall stand corrected as well on their significant use in such engagements as Lepanto, where such on-on-one tactics were the norm. Indeed, the Military Regulations of the Colony of Virginia make note of the necessity of using Targeteers armed with broadsword and pistol, and expecting that Sergeants and Officers too will carry Targets while in the field against Indians, rather than Halberds or Spears.

I think I read about that in Harold Peterson's classic book on Colonial Arms & Armor.

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One of the things I would note about Cortez's men was that a number of them (especially the one's who "reinforced" Cortez, who had landed under the command of Panfilio Narvaez to arrest him) were veterans of the Wars in Italy, and quite possibly of Ravenna. So their trust in the rodelo would be well placed, both in the field against Aztecan warriors armed with maquahuitl and shield, or in the siege of Tenochtitlan later.

Interesting.

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I too would be interested as to how much effect such troops had at Garigliano, where tight quarters and bad weather reduced the abilities of the French to effect their usual tactics. (One might ask a similar question, as to how effective would targeteers have been at Pavia, had the Spaniards continued to employ large numbers?)

The Garigliano seems tailor-made for such espadachins--ditto for Pavia (and, considering that the colunela was still the standard unit in the Spanish army at that time, perhaps more rodeleros were involved at Pavia than is generally supposed).

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Oh, and thanks for the info on Andrea Pessoa vs the Japanese... I had heard some mention of it, but not any specifics. I would enjoy hearing more on that one!

Unfortunately, what I mentioned is all I have, in terms of "specifics". Refer to Giles Milton's entertaining Samurai William for a description of the entire incident involving Pessoa's ship.

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But I would suggest that the primary reason for the decline of the mass use of Targetteers/Rodeleros was their inability to stand against Heavy Horse of the French variety.

That is what I suggested on the other thread regarding short sword use, though I tied it in specifically with the increased use of the gun as well.

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They did magnificently in the Reconquista against the Moors, and the siege fighting that often was so prevalent in the Italian Wars, and perhaps against light cavalry of the Jinete variety, but against French Heavy Horse and Swiss Halberds (with Pikes as well, obviously) in the open field, they tended to fair more poorly (not that they couldn't manage to kill Gaston de Foix and his entourage at Ravenna!)

Hah! :)

Well, aside from Seminara in 1495, they never seem to have had trouble with Swiss or landsknecht infantry. It was really a matter of having support from friendly pikemen, I think. Cordoba was leant 2,000 landsknechte by Maximilian after the Seminara disaster, and they gave the Spanish a much-needed pike element. After that, the rodeleros were able to close with enemy pikemen and thus become "mortal" to them, as at Barletta.

As for halberds vs. sword-and-target, I don't really know. Certainly, George Silver lists the halberd as having the "advantage" against the sword-and-target. Other experts felt differently. Cesare d'Evoli, writing in 1583, preferred sword-and-target to various polearms like halberds and bills. This may reflect cultural preferences, since the spada e rotella was a traditional method of fencing in Italy, just as it was in Spain.

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Again, thanks for the information! Cheers, Gordon

Always a pleasure.

Best,

David

Hi David,

David Black Mastro wrote:

The Garigliano seems tailor-made for such espadachins--ditto for Pavia (and, considering that the colunela was still the standard unit in the Spanish army at that time, perhaps more rodeleros were involved at Pavia than is generally supposed).

I agree on Garigliano, 'nimble' soldiers like the rodeleros would have been quite usefull in a surpsie atatck rpovided they had ample support by horse and pike if the enemy managed to form up. At the battle of Axtorna Swedish arquebusiers and rondachiers were caught unsupported in the open by Danish and german cavalry and quite roughly handled.

I'm not sure why Pavia would have been tailor made for rodeleros? The victory "in the north" was only achived thanks to the presence of the large force of Landsknechts and the Frenchs armys failures in command & control. The spanish infantry had to run for their lives in order to not be overrun by the victorious French Gendarmes. Adn this depsite possesing a large and well trained force of pikemen unlike in 1495. Without the Landknecht regiments of Bourbon and Frundsberg the imperial infantry would probably have been lost or forced to withdraw out of the park as the French and German foot came up in support of the Gendarmes.

I've not encountered rodeleros in any of the eywitness accounts from Pavia which i've read but given the fog and the high level of confusion this isn't surprising. Some were certainly present but how many will probably never be determined, I'd suspect less than the 20% demanded in reuglations but the sources lack the detials necessary for clear cut conclusions.

There is of course one place were the rodeleros could have have done sterling service, the sortie from Pavia. I must admitt that they would have been perfect to spearhead the intial assault on the siegeworks if supported by shot. No nasty French horse present nor good groudn for employing large, well ordered formations of pikes.

David Black Mastro wrote:

Well, aside from Seminara in 1495, they never seem to have had trouble with Swiss or landsknecht infantry. It was really a matter of having support from friendly pikemen, I think. Cordoba was leant 2,000 landsknechte by Maximilian after the Seminara disaster, and they gave the Spanish a much-needed pike element. After that, the rodeleros were able to close with enemy pikemen and thus become "mortal" to them, as at Barletta.

But the rodeleros were never again exposed to a significant force of formed cavalry or pikes in the open as long as El Gran Captian was in command. He very carefully chose to fight from behind fortifications or to use suprise attacks. As benefitting one of the truly great commanders of the 16th Century he knew both himself and the enemy very well indeed, Sun Tzu would have certainly have approved of him on that count. A truly skilled commander only fights battles in which his troops has all the advantages and Gonzalo de Cordoba was a master of this.
Even after Ravenna the Spanish continued to fight from behind fortifications and avoided set-piece battles in the open against the French. Even with a significant force of Spanish infantry and Landsknechts present at La Bicocca they still chose to entrench themselves rather than fight in the open.

Pikes were bought on a large scale by the Spanish after Seminara and used to rearm the crossbowmen who were rapidly considered to be obsolete for European warfare, of course a number of ex-crossbowmen were re-armed with the arquebus instead.

Regards
Daniel

Benjamin and Daniel, great stuff! Good to read such learned posts. I didn't think that ANYONE else had read Cortez's letters to Charles Vth! Please note the similarity with them to Caesar's Letters from Gaul... :D

Per fights in the open, vs. suckering in the French to attack an intrenched position (which got harder to do), it seems as though the only major battle of the later Italian Wars that was fought in the open was Ceresole, and the Imperialists were sorely beaten in that one (thanks be to a rather suicidal charge by Des Thermes' light horsemen against the Italian pike column.) I don't think that you can find any author of the period who would discount the use of a good shield, especially if proof, in the siege operations normal during that day and age.

(Speaking of which, it seems as though Marechal Blaise de Montluc was carrying a wooden target while leading his French foot troops in an assault against the English, since he mentions having several arrows sticking in it from the English archers who were still a major component of English Shotte at the time...such arrows would be unlikely to stick into a proof steel target, I would think)

Again, wonderful discussion!

Cheers,

Gordon

Benjamin,

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:

Yes, but that's for individual combat in the open, not for mass actions in the field. The short staff has advantage against any other weapon in a duel, but is considered to be far inferior to halberd in battle. From this we can see that advantage in one situation doesn't mean advantage in another.

Obviously.

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Silver might have thought the halberd more useful in battle, but if so he didn't tell us. All we know is that he said both the halberd and the sword and target have a place on the field.

That's precisely my point--aside from saying that the halberd had the advantage in single combat, and that both were useful in battle, he doesn't comment any further. Because of this, I still think it's an open issue.

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Cortez said so: "For the soldiers with bucklers can do very little alone, as the enemy are so numerous and have such great and strong cities and fortresses." Because of his, he was asking for guns, crossbows and horses. That's on page 157 in Letters from Mexico, translated and edited by Anthony Pagden, New Haven: Yale University Press, 1986.

That doesn't mean that rodeleros weren't "decisive", it simply means that they had to work in conjunction with other troop types.

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Quote: And thus the rodeleros maintained their formation, and were able to engage Indians from there. Don't forget about all those "miracles of swordplay" that Bernal Diaz spoke of. Certainly they were important, but they rarely if ever broke enemy formations alone. I'll agree that Diaz gives them more respect than Cortez, though, for obvious reasons.

Yeah, leave it to a rodelero to give credit to rodeleros. ;)

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Here's Cortez again: "In addition to this all the Spaniards carried pikes which I had ordered to be made after our defeat, and these proved most advantageous" (Letters, 254). That was describing a bit of fighting in Tenochtitlán. He also mentions pikes on page 132.

Interesting. I need to add this book to my collection.

Best,

David

Daniel,

Daniel Staberg wrote:

Hi David, I agree on Garigliano, 'nimble' soldiers like the rodeleros would have been quite usefull in a surpsie atatck rpovided they had ample support by horse and pike if the enemy managed to form up.

Definitely.

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At the battle of Axtorna Swedish arquebusiers and rondachiers were caught unsupported in the open by Danish and german cavalry and quite roughly handled.

When was this battle?

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I'm not sure why Pavia would have been tailor made for rodeleros? The victory "in the north" was only achived thanks to the presence of the large force of Landsknechts and the Frenchs armys failures in command & control. The spanish infantry had to run for their lives in order to not be overrun by the victorious French Gendarmes. Adn this depsite possesing a large and well trained force of pikemen unlike in 1495. Without the Landknecht regiments of Bourbon and Frundsberg the imperial infantry would probably have been lost or forced to withdraw out of the park as the French and German foot came up in support of the Gendarmes. I've not encountered rodeleros in any of the eywitness accounts from Pavia which i've read but given the fog and the high level of confusion this isn't surprising. Some were certainly present but how many will probably never be determined, I'd suspect less than the 20% demanded in reuglations but the sources lack the detials necessary for clear cut conclusions.

Interesting.

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There is of course one place were the rodeleros could have have done sterling service, the sortie from Pavia. I must admitt that they would have been perfect to spearhead the intial assault on the siegeworks if supported by shot. No nasty French horse present nor good groudn for employing large, well ordered formations of pikes.

I was thinking in terms of that, as well as the assault and capture of the Mirabello lodge, and the final action against the gendarmes.

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But the rodeleros were never again exposed to a significant force of formed cavalry or pikes in the open as long as El Gran Captian was in command. He very carefully chose to fight from behind fortifications or to use suprise attacks. As benefitting one of the truly great commanders of the 16th Century he knew both himself and the enemy very well indeed, Sun Tzu would have certainly have approved of him on that count. A truly skilled commander only fights battles in which his troops has all the advantages and Gonzalo de Cordoba was a master of this.

Wholeheartedly agreed. An expert wrestler isn't going to stand and trade punches with an expert pugilist.

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Even after Ravenna the Spanish continued to fight from behind fortifications and avoided set-piece battles in the open against the French. Even with a significant force of Spanish infantry and Landsknechts present at La Bicocca they still chose to entrench themselves rather than fight in the open.

Yes--and look at the results.

Best,

David

Interesting discussion, guys.

When posting, though, please be careful that you're only quoting things meaningful to your response. There are several posts where the poster has included a total of 4 or 5 sentences, but quoted much more, not all of it directly related to their reply. For instance, David's last post contained 7 sentences of his own writing, most of them short. There are 18 quoted sentences int he same post.

Also, try to avoid quotes within your quotes. To scroll through 1/2 a page of quoted text that is presented in its entirety right above is not always necessary.

Thanks!

An interesting discussion, indeed!

My personal thanks to all of the participants for taking the time to share their respective knowledge and thoughts. This single thread offers a generous reading list all of its own. Bravo.



And, David Black Mastro...welcome to the forum, brother.



Michael