This morning I was working on my mail hauberk and thought I'd post some observations.

I've been using loose flat rings and rivets purchased from two sources: Historic Enterprises and Forth Armoury.

The rings sold by Historic Enterprises are made by Get Dressed For Battle in their shop in India. HE is the US vendor. Forth Armoury has their rings also made in India.

Thus far I have found the rings supplied by Forth Armoury to be far superior. The GDFB rings feature a black oil finish that is very messy, and still the rings arrived with a bit of rust in spite of this. I removed this finish with an overnight soak in vinegar, followed by a few hours in a tumbler. The rings still remained a bit messy though. The Forth Armoury rings come pre-polished without a messy finish, nor were they rusty upon arrival. However, the real benefit of the Forth Armoury rings lies in the fact that the rivet holes are much more cleanly punched. This saves a lot of fiddling time during assembly. With both types I have found a few rings that didn't have rivet holes in them, or with holes that were too far off center to be usable. This number isn't huge and is acceptable given the cost, but is a bit irritating.

The GDFB rings are definitely usable and may be the only available alternative in many cases, since Forth Armoury seems to be chronically out of stock on many of their items. Still, I've found the Forth Armoury product to be the superior one.

I hope to one day make or buy a mail hauberk. I consider making my own from time to time, but believe your previous post about how tedious this process really is!

I have seen some rings offered at the Rind Lord http://www.theringlord.com/whattype.shtml

I also noticed that they sell pre-made sheets of material that could save someone a lot of time. The rings I have seen that are ready to rivet appear to be described as more of a flat washer. I have a preferrence for a ring that is rounded (like wound wire might have been) and only flattened in the rivet area.

Could you post a close up picture of one of your rings and comment? Suitable gauge of ring, mild steel preferred for actual durability in cut?

I appreciate your post as you introduce the names of actual suppliers that are not easily tracked down. Thanks.

I also thought that some of the more do it yourself types on the forum might entertain making blued mail, for improved corrosion resistance.

This might be easier than some would think, but I don't know anyone who has described the following idea. How about some opinions on if it would work?

A finished mail hauberk or coif could be heated and quenched in an oil bath. As I understand it, some types of oil (one person described spraying WD-40) will impart a nice darkening/ blueing effect that can be better than chemical cold blueing. This will leave the metal hardened, and vulnerable to brittle failure when cut with a sword. A second annealing (gradual heat followed by gradual cool down) would be needed to return the mail to annealed state. How the blueing would look after the annealing heat, I don't know.

I would think some of the manufacturers, who have facilities large enought to work with swords, could easily handle a 20 lb wad of mail.

What originally led me to this idea were some internet articles on historical mail riveting. A few pictures of authentic mail (such as a comparison page photo on the Forth Armoury site) really seem to illustrate a rivet that is finished over with forge welding. High quality mail may not have had a weak spot at the rivet area, and if anything could have been thickest and toughest there. The original welding process was described on a web site that I have lost track of (changed my browser to Firefox recently.) As best as I can remember the discussion of original technique, the mail was actually annealed to relieve stresses in the welds over the rivet area. This may have been bunk, but it would make lots of sense mechanically. Obviously, forge welding over each rivet really escallates the cost and time of making mail, but seems consistent with higher cost estimates I have seen that describe good mail as costing the equivalent to several years income of a typical craft/construction laborer.

I would really appreciate some close up photos of actual European mail links from 1000 to 1300 AD period. Most museums seem to focus on mail (much of which is actually post 1450 AD when they take the trouble to post dates on it such as at Higgens Armoury.) It would be nice to see if there is significant evidence of forge welding over links.

Meant to say that "Most museums tend to focus on plate" not mail in above post. 1000 to 1300 AD armor (plate or mail) seems tough to find.

This article may interest some.

http://www.wallacecollection.org/i_s/publicat...uction.htm

If the GDFB rings are good other than the oil finish it may help to soak them in Simple Green to get rid of the oil. Simple Green will break down and dissovle any kind of oil or grease on contact. Also Castrol Super Clean does the same, and is even more powerful though is not as forgiving. Both can be found in the automotive section. Anyway just a suggestion if it helps.

Lance

Also, is their evidence of 'blueing' (oil blackening) of mail historically? Visually speaking, the surviving 'black' examples appear to be merely patinated, to my untrained eye. Was the finished oil blackening process perhaps too dirty for common use of the periods (I know my 'cheapo' zinc plated riveted mail is very dirty, and blackens any garments worn underneath).

A few things to think about in regards to heat treating mail to harden it.

The first being, does it have enough carbon in it to be able to harden it and enough to make it worthwhile to try. If it doesn't have much carbon, then you might just be better off with the work hardening you would get from making the mail.
Then you have what might be a problem in just bringing it up to temp evenly without burning up outer areas or thin spots in the rings. You have to wonder then if you wouldn't burn out most of the carbon you did have considering your dealing with such a small mass and high surface area. I'm not sure, Erik would have a better idea as to how well the joints of the rings would hold together through out the process of expansion and rapid contraction of the steel during the process. Also you would have the cracking possibilities.

I just have my doubts about it.

Shane

I'd think hardening the mail would be counter productive. With something as small and thin as a mail ring it might break under impact rather than bend and deform the way a relatively soft iron ring would.

During the the latter years of the Medieval Era, some mail was both hardened and tempered. More often than not the tempering phase is really not needed. I have done tests with hardened and untempered links made of wrought steel and they are t-o-u-g-h. They do not break easily. At least not by striking them. But, bending them can workharden the bend area and it will break eventually.

You have to remember that all of the manufacturing stages are done with the links in a normalized or annealed state in order to keep the tools in proper working order. All heat treatment, if any, is performed after the garment is completed. This only applies to mail made with wrought steel links as opposed to wrought iron, since WI does not have enough carbon in it to facilitate hardening.

Just as a note:

The GDFB mail you can get from HE now comes in a "lightly burnished" state. I just got a haubergeon from them, and it's a nice deep steel color.... not too bright, but far from the black oily mess of old. Note, however, that it is still pretty greasy on delivery. A good degreasing is in order, but it's no longer black. Looks quite nice mby my estimation.

I have some loose rings from Forth armoury and can recommend them. Well cleaned and burnished, rust free, and pretty low defect rate.

Doh!

Quite right.

Too bad, I wanted to tailor my haubergeon a bit. Guess, I'll tumble them myself.

Mike