Can the hilt for the Munich be reproduced accuratly? I'm not talking about the leather work, but just the over all shape and design of the grip for the NG.
The reason I ask is because I have noticed all the other Albion swords have most of the curvature of the grip taken away from concept to the production sword. Many of them have very beautiful curves on the grip leading to the riser in the concept drawing, but they are almost curveless when produced. Look at the regent for example, that is the most stark difference.
Can anybody tell me why this is? It would be a shame if the curves on the munich are lost as well, or even if they are toned down from the elegant original.
A lot of the concept art is more beautiful than the actual swords, in my opinion. I'm just curious as to why so much of that elegance is not carried over in production.
Thanks,
Lance
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| Lance Karsten wrote: |
| Can anybody tell me why this is? It would be a shame if the curves on the munich are lost as well, or even if they are toned down from the elegant original. |
Why? Because likely Albion changed their mind from the concept drawings to the final product. They chose to put a more angular, almost diamond-shaped grip on the Regent, as one example.
I believe they've since changed the design. The version I saw at Atlanta was far more rounded, almost exactly like the concept drawing. I believe that the photo, above, is deceptive: it's not a very good photograph.
Frankly, I preferred the angular one far more. This makes me regret selling my Regent (shown below) even more than I did. I had thought I could always re-purchase one when the cash flow came, but now the product is different. oh well.
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Mine looks a lot more like the concept drawing... angle is a bit odd, but you can see evidence of a more sharp break towards the pommel starting at the riser mid-grip.
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I'll bet the grip is close on the Next Gen, though by definition, this line is inspired by historical pieces. It'll be a wonderful recreation, I'm sure, on the Museum Line piece - it's here that reproducing these fine details is the focus.
[ Linked Image ]
I'll bet the grip is close on the Next Gen, though by definition, this line is inspired by historical pieces. It'll be a wonderful recreation, I'm sure, on the Museum Line piece - it's here that reproducing these fine details is the focus.
Nathan, when you get back around to re-ordering your Regent, talk to Mike about the grip. From my own experience, if a thing can be done, Albion is very accomodating if the request is realistic. A great example is Chad's Sovereign; as far as I knew, Albion didn't even offer the cross in bronze until Chad came along and requested it. I think the key is not asking the world - if the request doesn't break the sword design-wise and doesn't really dent the labor side of the equation too much, Albion wants you to be happy with your sword just as much as you do. They really are a bunch of sword enthusiasts at heart, and Eric's cutlery crew are some very talented artists.
They may be a "production shop" but when they say, "one sword at a time" they mean it. :)
They may be a "production shop" but when they say, "one sword at a time" they mean it. :)
Jonathan,
The bronze Sovereign was a special order. According to Mike, they're not ever going to cast Sovereign guards in bronze again. They had a few extras from the same casting run as mine that they tried to sell in Atlanta. But that's not a special order item; it was a show-only special.
On the Regent grip, that change came at Peter's behest; as such, it's now the standard. Their grip cores are made off of patterns, so it would be extra labor to do a different style than what is now the norm.
It doesn't hurt to ask, but you need to be realistic about what to expect. These aren't custom swords, even though there is so much handwork involved.
Lance,
If you'll look closely at the sketch of the Regent and the final version, the grip is not the only change. The cross changed a great deal, and the proportions of the pommel did, too. I'd guess the change of grip shape was made either as part of the overall design change that included guard and pommel or to save cost in construction and assembly (though I'm not privy to Albion's decision-making processs, of course).
Here's the grip on mine, one of the last before the recent grip change.
Attachment: 20.07 KB
The bronze Sovereign was a special order. According to Mike, they're not ever going to cast Sovereign guards in bronze again. They had a few extras from the same casting run as mine that they tried to sell in Atlanta. But that's not a special order item; it was a show-only special.
On the Regent grip, that change came at Peter's behest; as such, it's now the standard. Their grip cores are made off of patterns, so it would be extra labor to do a different style than what is now the norm.
It doesn't hurt to ask, but you need to be realistic about what to expect. These aren't custom swords, even though there is so much handwork involved.
Lance,
If you'll look closely at the sketch of the Regent and the final version, the grip is not the only change. The cross changed a great deal, and the proportions of the pommel did, too. I'd guess the change of grip shape was made either as part of the overall design change that included guard and pommel or to save cost in construction and assembly (though I'm not privy to Albion's decision-making processs, of course).
Here's the grip on mine, one of the last before the recent grip change.
Attachment: 20.07 KBAnd ofcourse, artwork is one thing, and even some as skilled as Peter, might find that once you get going, somethings need to changed to be practicle.
Who knows why the grip was changed? I don't know. However, I feel that Peter and the guys of over at Albion would never make such a desicion without a good reason. :)
Who knows why the grip was changed? I don't know. However, I feel that Peter and the guys of over at Albion would never make such a desicion without a good reason. :)
Thanks for the info, Chad. . . I wonder if they have any of those bronze-guarded Sovereigns left. . .
| Lance Karsten wrote: |
| Can the hilt for the Munich be reproduced accuratly? I'm not talking about the leather work, but just the over all shape and design of the grip for the NG.
The reason I ask is because I have noticed all the other Albion swords have most of the curvature of the grip taken away from concept to the production sword. Many of them have very beautiful curves on the grip leading to the riser in the concept drawing, but they are almost curveless when produced. Look at the regent for example, that is the most stark difference. Can anybody tell me why this is? It would be a shame if the curves on the munich are lost as well, or even if they are toned down from the elegant original. A lot of the concept art is more beautiful than the actual swords, in my opinion. I'm just curious as to why so much of that elegance is not carried over in production. Thanks, Lance |
The reason you see a difference is that the concept drawings are sometimes a bit exaggerated to get the idfea across. I might also make exaggerations with out really meaning to, in the search to pin point a certain characteristic. Then it is also an effect of the drawings being drawn in scale 1:5. That makes some changes necessary when you make the swords in full scale and three dimensions.
The concept drawings are just that: concept drawings. Not blueprints or something that shows a finalized design. They show the character and essence of the sword. You will alsways find discrepancies between the initial concept drawing and the finished design.
When it comes to grip shapes, they wil vary slightly from sword to sword. The grips are made by hand. I have made templates and/or drawings for the Albion crew to work from, but the shape of individual grips *will* vary somewhat. I would advice you not to ask for a specific shape of a grip just from aesthetic reasons. What looks great in a drawing might not look som great on a sword in full scale. My documentation of originals, the drawings and models produced dring the deisgn process, all these are weighed together in the final design.
Hope this makes things a bit more clear.
Best
Peter
| Lance Karsten wrote: |
| Can the hilt for the Munich be reproduced accuratly? I'm not talking about the leather work, but just the over all shape and design of the grip for the NG.
The reason I ask is because I have noticed all the other Albion swords have most of the curvature of the grip taken away from concept to the production sword. Many of them have very beautiful curves on the grip leading to the riser in the concept drawing, but they are almost curveless when produced. Look at the regent for example, that is the most stark difference. |
Sorry Lance!
I read your post too quickly and missed your real question.
The case with the Munich sword is different as that is based on a full scale sword from the beginning. We have also gathered some experience and developed production methods since the first Regents were put together. This makes the steps from concept and design to productioon fewer and shorter resutling in smaller tolerances.
The photo of the Regent is taken from one of the very first prototypes made in the workshop (if I remember correctly). As has been pointed out before in the thread, the grip has since been developed to be closer to the first concepts. (grip cores has been adjusted on a few other swords as well). Developments like this is a contlinual process. Mostly details are adjusted in ways that are rather subtle.
To answer your question: yes I think the grip on the NG Munich sword will be pretty much spot on. I know that the guys in the Albion workshop shares my enthusiasm for this sword (at least they say so to me ;-) so few efforts will be spared on this one.
| Peter Johnsson wrote: |
|
The reason you see a difference is that the concept drawings are sometimes a bit exaggerated to get the idfea across. I might also make exaggerations with out really meaning to, in the search to pin point a certain characteristic. Then it is also an effect of the drawings being drawn in scale 1:5. That makes some changes necessary when you make the swords in full scale and three dimensions. They show the character and essence of the sword. |
Peter,
Thanks for this information! This is what I felt, the impression I got from your drawings. Seemed to me the drawings were, as you say, an expression of character. So it makes sense that when the expression comes into practicality it will be toned down some, which is what I have noticed.
I just wasn't sure if the drawings were exaggerated or if the production end was not able to live up to the original vision. So this was really what I wanted clarified, that the drawings were in fact exaggerated to capture the expressed essence of the design. This also answers my question in regards to the production aims of the Munich, and all Albion's swords in general.
Thanks again,
Lance
Hey Lance,
I see what you mean by the final product looking somewhat different than the concept drawing, but (just as Peter says) they're just that: concepts. I don't mean to repeat what he just said, but the drawings should only serve as templates; i.e. to give other people an idea on what the actual sword will look like, not necessarily a precise duplicate.
But then there's the correlation of seeing photographs of, say, the Regent and actually seeing the sword in person. Could be just me, but I think seeing the Regent with your own eyes allows you to see the 'curves' in the grip or the cross or wherever that photos on a webpage don't show. For example, when I first saw the concept drawing of the Viceroy, I just thought it was kinda cool. I felt the same when I saw the pics, but when I actually saw one in person and got to hold it, I was mesmerized!
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but seeing in-person is worth a thousand more. :)
I see what you mean by the final product looking somewhat different than the concept drawing, but (just as Peter says) they're just that: concepts. I don't mean to repeat what he just said, but the drawings should only serve as templates; i.e. to give other people an idea on what the actual sword will look like, not necessarily a precise duplicate.
But then there's the correlation of seeing photographs of, say, the Regent and actually seeing the sword in person. Could be just me, but I think seeing the Regent with your own eyes allows you to see the 'curves' in the grip or the cross or wherever that photos on a webpage don't show. For example, when I first saw the concept drawing of the Viceroy, I just thought it was kinda cool. I felt the same when I saw the pics, but when I actually saw one in person and got to hold it, I was mesmerized!
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but seeing in-person is worth a thousand more. :)
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