Interesting day today, a new collector turned up with his "Ko Ichimonji Tachi". he had purchased around eight moths ago complete with Japanese papers dated from the early 60's and rated just below Juyo.
A truly beutiful sword wit elegant sugata and suriage nakago that sported an Ichi character, the paper confirmed and dated it to c1250. He returned it to the same society for a re polish {Although in 95% as it stood} with the hopes that it might go Juyo this time around.
Shattered when he recieved a letter from the head of that society saying it was fake and from the Muromachi period, so suddenly his 25k sword had devalued to (Quoting a US dealer) 1.700.............
Understandably he is very unhappy, my question to the membership is this, has anyone had a similar experience?. You will not be quoted.
I think we are all aware that in the period 70/80's, spuere issued for various reasons, but the 60's were considered to be a safe area?.
:mad:
My apologies for the gramatical errors, the spell check does not seem to work and finger to brain cordanation is poor........ :eek:
All of the older NBTHK papers are essentially considered to be good guides, but not 100% accurate. If the papers are from a certain branch (Osaka I believe, but I may be wrong) Then chances are they are less than accurate.
It's also a completely different Shinsa team.
The best thing I can say is for your friend to resubmit the blade for shinsa again in a few years.
They may change their mind...
Good advice for buying any type of Nihonto:
Buy the Sword, not the Name.
It's also a completely different Shinsa team.
The best thing I can say is for your friend to resubmit the blade for shinsa again in a few years.
They may change their mind...
Good advice for buying any type of Nihonto:
Buy the Sword, not the Name.
| Thomas Jason wrote: |
| All of the older NBTHK papers are essentially considered to be good guides, but not 100% accurate. If the papers are from a certain branch (Osaka I believe, but I may be wrong) Then chances are they are less than accurate.
It's also a completely different Shinsa team. The best thing I can say is for your friend to resubmit the blade for shinsa again in a few years. They may change their mind... Good advice for buying any type of Nihonto: Buy the Sword, not the Name. |
I totally agree and have always done this myself over the forty years of collecting. The papers were not by the NBTHK but by the other society........
As this man is 'Six swords' into collecting, a bright lad who has researched intensely the subject and decided that early Koto blades are for him, that to buy swords with papers as at 25k and above this should assure (at least to a novice)that his investment is assured. He was not aware that there could be differing opinions.......I saw this at various Taikai and on one occasion when a friend sent a sword to a very famous polisher,over six months the opinion on the sword changed three time,period,school etc.
If he decides to sell the sword with existing papers he is likely to recover his expenditure but loves the blade which is really fine. The point is that it has understandably shaken his confidence,so, some positive{If possible} feedback in a similar scenario might help.
I had at one point 200 blades, now down to around 40, none with papers and few with professional Japanese polish. As I sell my collection to fund holidays and repairs (Recent Gassan SadaKazu is an example) I find that many folk will not venture unless the blade has papers. Quandry!.
Regards
Roy
At the first UK To-Ken taikai the shinsa team was made up of five Japanese and Han-bin -Siong (Deceased). Opinions were given on the basis of a collective......
As you rightly say re buying the blade, what value a shinsa paper, even a Juyo certificate, if the next team differs in opinion?.
Surely given this situation a 'Good' sword is a good sword. An early Koto sword cannot be other?, if this is not so how many on the Juyo list have question marks over them?. :eek:
As you rightly say re buying the blade, what value a shinsa paper, even a Juyo certificate, if the next team differs in opinion?.
Surely given this situation a 'Good' sword is a good sword. An early Koto sword cannot be other?, if this is not so how many on the Juyo list have question marks over them?. :eek:
What year was it?
I am under the impression that in the past the British Token Society has brought experts over from multiple organizations and affiliations.
I'd contact the British Token Society about this directly, if someone is peddling fake papers from their Shinsa, they should take action.
I am under the impression that in the past the British Token Society has brought experts over from multiple organizations and affiliations.
I'd contact the British Token Society about this directly, if someone is peddling fake papers from their Shinsa, they should take action.
| Thomas Jason wrote: |
| What year was it?
I am under the impression that in the past the British Token Society has brought experts over from multiple organizations and affiliations. I'd contact the British Token Society about this directly, if someone is peddling fake papers from their Shinsa, they should take action. |
I hope I did not give the impression that this was anything to do with the British To-Ken society, it was not. The papers were it appears, to a US collector, the papers issued in the early 60's gave it as Ichimonji and date as around 1250.
Since posting on several sites the feedback has been that (a) the sword should be re-submitted is a couple of years when a new team is in situ (b) that papers all though authoritive, are just an opinion.
I once spent some time with a now very famous Japanese polisher, he said during the day that he could be absolute only when a sword was signed and the signature could be matched. With the Ichi character only this I would assume would be difficult and the work within the blade would be all important.
I do not pretend to have any expertise as far as Ichimonji or Ko Ichimonji are concerned, as I have said I have only seen and handled one in forty years, that had a gold inlay atrribution and from the Compton collection. The worry to my friend is that "Secure buying" at considerable expense, now has a shdow cast as far as papers are concerned. :?:
If the US collector is still alive, I'd contact him and see if you could get some background information.
Sadly, this does happen from time to time.
Applying for shinsa is always a risk as the further up on the paper trail you apply for, the more scrutiny is paid and more things may be discovered.
Sadly, this does happen from time to time.
Applying for shinsa is always a risk as the further up on the paper trail you apply for, the more scrutiny is paid and more things may be discovered.
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