Intresting subject but I think it deserves it´s own topic...

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Yep, those are the same five I'm talking about for the most part, except that the redel isn't actually a master strike, and there's also the krumphau. But, yes, we're on the same page. When I say "not intuitive", I mean that most people would not instinctively think to use the zwerchau to both defend against a head cut whilst simultaneously striking the opponent in the head with the short edge, or binding a blade down with the krumphau with a follow up cut to the head using the short edge. Perhaps I'm not being fair to everyone, but I know I never would have thought of it until I started studying Liechtanauer. But who knows, I've been pretty dense about a lot of things. Happy The zornhau, on the other hand, is very intuitive, and I think that's exactly why it's the first of the master strikes, as so many of the other concepts (fuhlen, winden, etc.) can easily be taught out of it.

I´m of the same opinion. If you look at sparring the "Drei hau" Over, Middel und Under strikes are the ones used the most. The Meisterhau are much harder to exercise due to distnace and timing.

Hi Martin,

The Drei Hauwe are not the three types of blows you cited; rather, this term is used in mss. 3227a (aka, Dobringer) for a technique where you deliver an Unterhau from one side, then the other, followed by an Oberhau down to the head.

The Mittelhau does not seem to be considered an equal of the Ober- and Unterhaue, for that same mss. says that all strokes of the sword come from the strokes above and below.

Cheers,

Christian

Yep. To once again bring up Dobringer (I've been working with that text a lot lately):

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And also know that from two strikes alone come all other strikes that it is possible to name: that is the oberhaw (overcut) and the unterhaw (undercut) from both sides. These are the main strikes and form the foundation for all other strikes. They are in themselves basic and come from the point of the sword, which is the centre and core of all other pieces that is well described to you. And from these strikes come the four displacements from each side with which all strikes or thrusts are broken and also all guards, and from them you come into the four hangings and from these one can do fine art as you will hear later.

Dobringer does not specifically bring up the middle cut, as medieval masters seemed to have lumped that into the over and under cuts, but otherwise it's the same sentiment.

Whoops, Christian posted before I finished. :)

Thanks a lot Bill. With you help i've found the verse in Ringecks Fechtbuch.
I'll think about if for the rest of the week and then ask my fellow-fencers about the Redel on Saturday ...
:)

Hi folks,

Please bear in mind that I've completely re-interpreted Redel. I now believe this technique is nothing more than a circular changing through around the opponent's weapon, and that it is a direct analogue to the Pfobenzagel (Peacock's Tail) found in Dobringer.

This is covered in my newer book.

All the best,

Christian

Thanks Christian.
Your description of a circular "Durchwechseln" fits with what i've been shown in training today and with Ringeck's original description ( as far as I can read and understand old german).

I just couldn't make Bill's description fit with Ringeck's text and was just going to ask about it, only to find the answer here waiting for me.
And the Redel is fun to play with, too.
I just love this site... :cool: