Perhaps I'm mistaken but I thought the the master cuts were pretty basic and would necessarily form the bulk of any long sword/greatsword fight both on and off of the battlefield (with the possible exception of the "squinter"). After all these form the bulk of kenjutsu and there are only so many ways to swing a a sword with both hands.
| Allen W wrote: |
| Perhaps I'm mistaken but I thought the the master cuts were pretty basic and would necessarily form the bulk of any long sword/greatsword fight both on and off of the battlefield (with the possible exception of the "squinter"). After all these form the bulk of kenjutsu and there are only so many ways to swing a a sword with both hands. |
While the master cuts do form the basis of the Liechtenauer system, they aren't all intuitive. In fact, most masters referred to them as the "secret strikes". There are many attacks with the false edge which are done in ways that most people wouldn't think to do. In fact, Doebringer urges the reliance on the main cuts (ober, unter and mittel, or over, under and middle) over the master strikes.
Though I don't think Joachim was saying that the master strikes were too complicated for mass combat, I think he was just saying that in some cases they tend to take a lot of room. The zwerchau (cross strike) requires a fair amount of horizontal space, and you wouldn't want to lop off one of your buddy's heads. I think you'd definately see these kinds of strikes when the combat spread out a little more, but I do agree with him that it's probably more common to see in a one on one judicial duel.
One of the reasons for my post was the supposition that the master cuts may not have been "invented" by the the 14th. cent. For these Master cuts I am going by my notes on the five strikes from Tobler's translation of Ringeck, all of which (excepting the squinter) I picked up easily and intuitively many years ago just free sparing with shinai and dry handling swords. While much of the winding and back edge cuts aren't so intuitive most the strikes are. Maybe we are discussing different strikes. I'm thinking of Zornhau, Zwechhau, Schielhau, scheitelhau, and Redel as defined by Ringeck from Tobler's translation.
| Allen W wrote: |
| One of the reasons for my post was the supposition that the master cuts may not have been "invented" by the the 14th. cent. For these Master cuts I am going by my notes on the five strikes from Tobler's translation of Ringeck, all of which (excepting the squinter) I picked up easily and intuitively many years ago just free sparing with shinai and dry handling swords. While much of the winding and back edge cuts aren't so intuitive most the strikes are. Maybe we are discussing different strikes. I'm thinking of Zornhau, Zwechhau, Schielhau, scheitelhau, and Redel as defined by Ringeck from Tobler's translation. |
Yep, those are the same five I'm talking about for the most part, except that the redel isn't actually a master strike, and there's also the krumphau. But, yes, we're on the same page. When I say "not intuitive", I mean that most people would not instinctively think to use the zwerchau to both defend against a head cut whilst simultaneously striking the opponent in the head with the short edge, or binding a blade down with the krumphau with a follow up cut to the head using the short edge. Perhaps I'm not being fair to everyone, but I know I never would have thought of it until I started studying Liechtanauer. But who knows, I've been pretty dense about a lot of things. :) The zornhau, on the other hand, is very intuitive, and I think that's exactly why it's the first of the master strikes, as so many of the other concepts (fuhlen, winden, etc.) can easily be taught out of it.
| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
|
Though the carnage would be awful to actually witness, I'd be amazed to be able to watch mass combat (single, too, for that matter) through some time-warped crystal ball... As with most anything we ever seem to learn anything about, the more I learn, the less I seem to know. Though history and archaeology give us some really good clues, and I feel we have a good general idea, there are so, so many questions. Having done a lot of living history camps regarding Vikings and many day-long reenactment events of Stamford and Hastings in period garb and armour, I know I was EXHAUSTED at the end of the day. Of course, this wasn't my daily life, but it was a regular thing. I wasn't acclimated to it as one whose life I was trying to approximate, but I was in better shape then. Still whipped. |
Complete chaos and carnage is what I'd like to imagine reigned once the battle was truly joined. Avoiding exhaustion during a large scale battle is something I've pondered from time to time. What would be the best way? Economy of movement of course. Not doing more than nessecary to put down your enemy? But is that possible in all instances? I think not. It's a tough nut to crack, but I think part of the answers lies in them being in slightly better shape than we are. Relying in the men next to you is perhaps also something that would help in sustaining enough power to push on.
| Quote: |
| I knew I had an evil twin out there somewhere! :p I'm actually working toward that goal myself, but not just the longswords. One issue, of course, is in regards to the XIIIa's that are in Albion's lineup. The Duke, Count, and Chieftain are all examples of this particular typology, but I'd bet they all have noticeably different handling aspects. They each may exhibit the handling typical of that typology well enough, however, with respect to the other typologies, to give enough of an understanding. Good thing, though... I'll have some different pieces in my collection than you will (as well as a good bit of overlap, too). You're more than welcome to handle them all, any time. |
He he, you certainly do. :) Perhaps we should join forces and strive for world domination once we've accumulated enough weapons. :cool: Seriously though: It's really nice to see that you share my prepensity for accumulating weapons as a means to broaden your experience horizon. What pieces are currently included in your collection?
[quote="Aaron Schnatterly"]
Yes, it's a very aggressive project indeed. We are thankful for any help we can get. We're currently discussing how it's best handled. Provided my coming days aren't totally going the fubar way, I'm going to start looking at the material we have and perhaps draw some outlines to estimate we're we'll end up. Part of the reason for this project coming into existance in the first place is due to me actually preferring to show people things in person. There's only so much that can be shown and conveyed through text and pictures alone. Face to face is always the best thing. However, given our geographical location, that's not really an option right now. :( I really wish I had the financial means to travel unhindered. Then I'd be all over the place sharing ideas and picking up new ones.
That's reassuring to hear! :) Then I'll keep going. Especially since I too find this discussion really great and productive.
| Quote: |
| This is a very aggressive project, but one I would LOVE to see done. It isn't terrible, however, to produce - it's getting the material together and deciding on a format. If I can be of any assistance in this endeavor, please let me know. Even just seeing video clips of some of these techniques would be wonderfully helpful to a lot of people, me included. If only Sweden wasn't so far away... This may be a discussion to take offline, however... |
Yes, it's a very aggressive project indeed. We are thankful for any help we can get. We're currently discussing how it's best handled. Provided my coming days aren't totally going the fubar way, I'm going to start looking at the material we have and perhaps draw some outlines to estimate we're we'll end up. Part of the reason for this project coming into existance in the first place is due to me actually preferring to show people things in person. There's only so much that can be shown and conveyed through text and pictures alone. Face to face is always the best thing. However, given our geographical location, that's not really an option right now. :( I really wish I had the financial means to travel unhindered. Then I'd be all over the place sharing ideas and picking up new ones.
| Quote: |
| Please, DON'T stop. I'm learning a lot here, and putting a lot into perspective. It's great to get good dialog like this! Thanks to everyone involved! |
That's reassuring to hear! :) Then I'll keep going. Especially since I too find this discussion really great and productive.
| Joachim Nilsson wrote: |
| Complete chaos and carnage is what I'd like to imagine reigned once the battle was truly joined. Avoiding exhaustion during a large scale battle is something I've pondered from time to time. What would be the best way? Economy of movement of course. Not doing more than nessecary to put down your enemy? But is that possible in all instances? I think not. It's a tough nut to crack, but I think part of the answers lies in them being in slightly better shape than we are. Relying in the men next to you is perhaps also something that would help in sustaining enough power to push on. |
Slightly better shape? Speak for yourself! I'm nowhere close to prepared for that level of intense activity! :p (something I really do need to work on...) Otherwise, I agree completely. Another thing we have to be mindful of (and you are experienced enough to do it well!) is that the epic "There can be only one!" 15-minute constant hack and slash up and down a few hundred stairs just wasn't the norm. "Whack, whack, parry, thrust, dead, next!" was a lot more common, I'm sure.
| Joachim Nilsson wrote: |
| He he, you certainly do. :) Perhaps we should join forces and strive for world domination once we've accumulated enough weapons. :cool: Seriously though: It's really nice to see that you share my prepensity for accumulating weapons as a means to broaden your experience horizon. What pieces are currently included in your collection? |
:D :cool: Rename a fjord after me.
I really did want to amass a representative collection, not just to have, but to understand, use, and appreciate. I'm on pace for one a month, but I'm not certain if I will be able to maintain that with other purchases, projects, and responsibilities mounting. :wtf: Should take delivery on a full 16th C harness in July that I still owe a bit on.
Currently, I have in my posession a Next Gen Vinland, Landgraf, and Knight. I have the Regent and a Squire Line Bastard paid for and in the queue. I am debating my next order - probably either the Brescia Spadona, Baron, Duke, or Berserkr. I have plans for the Svante, Solingen, Mercenary, Talhoffer, Ringneck, Sempach, the Messers, Jarl, Prince or Squire... :p
I will also be nabbing the longswords and the rapier from the Maestro line once they come out, and very likely, the 2005 Albion Guild sword as well.
I also have a pair of schlager-bladed swept-hilt rapiers from Triplette Competition Arms and couple of Hanwei practical rapiers. They work fairly well, though I am looking forward to that Capoferro.
Toss on top of that a decent English Longbow... ;)
So... the invasion begins when? :lol:
| Allen W wrote: |
| Perhaps I'm mistaken but I thought the the master cuts were pretty basic and would necessarily form the bulk of any long sword/greatsword fight both on and off of the battlefield (with the possible exception of the "squinter"). After all these form the bulk of kenjutsu and there are only so many ways to swing a a sword with both hands. |
| Quote: |
| One of the reasons for my post was the supposition that the master cuts may not have been "invented" by the the 14th. cent. For these Master cuts I am going by my notes on the five strikes from Tobler's translation of Ringeck, all of which (excepting the squinter) I picked up easily and intuitively many years ago just free sparing with shinai and dry handling swords. While much of the winding and back edge cuts aren't so intuitive most the strikes are. Maybe we are discussing different strikes. I'm thinking of Zornhau, Zwechhau, Schielhau, scheitelhau, and Redel as defined by Ringeck from Tobler's translation. |
Allen, I was initially just speaking from the top of my head when I made those remarks. Hence the reason for me retracting them somewhat later on in the discussion. What I did from the outset though, was to discuss the useage of them within the context of using a sword like the Duke. That's why they were briefly mentioned in passing.
Bill is correct. Far from all Masters based their entire fencing around the Meisterhauen. Talhoffer, for instance, does not really pay too much attention to them. Nor does Meyer. He even considered some of them to be secondary. Whether or not they were used on the battlefield is something we can only speculate about. At best. Were some of the Meisterhauen used on the battlefield by some soldiers if the right opportunity presented itself? They probably were. Were all meisterhauen used all the time? I'm sceptical. Some of the Meisterhauen require you to step off line for them to be employed correctly. There might not have been room for doing so all the time. Doing such a thing might even open you up as a target for the enemy. Ever tried group sparring? Even at 8 or more individuals things quickly break down into the more basic cuts such as simple Ober- and Unterhauen. Still this does not constitute enough evidence for me to say that they were never employed under any circumstances, so that's not what I'm doing here. I'd just like to state that it's not really wise to make any sweaping assumptions for the use (or lack thereof) of the Meisterhauen in a battlefield situation.
As for back edge cuts not being intuitive: The Zwerchhau is a back edge cut.
I really think that taking this part of the discussion further would be to digress too much from the original subject. The discussing of Meisterhauen and their employment is better served as a separate subject. And i do believe that Martin have started a thread concerning that very thing. :)
Regards,
| Joachim Nilsson wrote: |
| Face to face is always the best thing. However, given our geographical location, that's not really an option right now. :( I really wish I had the financial means to travel unhindered. Then I'd be all over the place sharing ideas and picking up new ones. |
Won't / can't make any solid plans now, but if you're really serious, I'd consider a trip abroad at some point in the future. Never been to Sweden, though that's where half of me comes from... would LOVE to make the trip someday.
This project would be a whole lot of fun, as well as really advance my own understanding. I believe it would be of great utility to others as well, and help the world understand European swordsmanship better as a whole. Besides, I'd get to shake your hand in friendship.
Hey that would e great. I´m shure JN and me could arrange living and food for you! My parents rent out a cottage and I can shurley borrow it for such endevour!!!
| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
|
Slightly better shape? Speak for yourself! I'm nowhere close to prepared for that level of intense activity! :p (something I really do need to work on...) |
LOL. Well, I have been out of the loop for the past four months actually. But (without getting too deep into that subject right now) thanks to some people that have come to be very dear to me, I know feel ready to get back on my feet and devote myself to some serious training again.
| Quote: |
| Otherwise, I agree completely. Another thing we have to be mindful of (and you are experienced enough to do it well!) is that the epic "There can be only one!" 15-minute constant hack and slash up and down a few hundred stairs just wasn't the norm. "Whack, whack, parry, thrust, dead, next!" was a lot more common, I'm sure. |
Definately. No doubt about that.
| Quote: |
| :D :cool: Rename a fjord after me.
I really did want to amass a representative collection, not just to have, but to understand, use, and appreciate. I'm on pace for one a month, but I'm not certain if I will be able to maintain that with other purchases, projects, and responsibilities mounting. :wtf: Should take delivery on a full 16th C harness in July that I still owe a bit on. Currently, I have in my posession a Next Gen Vinland, Landgraf, and Knight. I have the Regent and a Squire Line Bastard paid for and in the queue. I am debating my next order - probably either the Brescia Spadona, Baron, Duke, or Berserkr. I have plans for the Svante, Solingen, Mercenary, Talhoffer, Ringneck, Sempach, the Messers, Jarl, Prince or Squire... :p I will also be nabbing the longswords and the rapier from the Maestro line once they come out, and very likely, the 2005 Albion Guild sword as well. I also have a pair of schlager-bladed swept-hilt rapiers from Triplette Competition Arms and couple of Hanwei practical rapiers. They work fairly well, though I am looking forward to that Capoferro. Toss on top of that a decent English Longbow... ;) So... the invasion begins when? :lol: |
As soon as you're ready. :D
I think you are going to like the Regent. Got the opportunity to try that one out at PJ's workshop last summer. Very impressive sword. But not my first choice for doing barehanded Blossfechten halfswording and Mortschlag with though. At least not with the current egdes on there. But it's still a very nice sword. The fish tail pommel offers some interesting options for gripping as well.
| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
|
Won't / can't make any solid plans now, but if you're really serious, I'd consider a trip abroad at some point in the future. Never been to Sweden, though that's where half of me comes from... would LOVE to make the trip someday. This project would be a whole lot of fun, as well as really advance my own understanding. I believe it would be of great utility to others as well, and help the world understand European swordsmanship better as a whole. Besides, I'd get to shake your hand in friendship. |
I'm as serious as a Mortschlag. :D You'd be most welcome if you ever decide to visit our end of the world. Would love to share ideas and interpretations.
| Martin Wallgren wrote: |
| Hey that would e great. I´m shure JN and me could arrange living and food for you! My parents rent out a cottage and I can shurley borrow it for such endevour!!! |
| Joachim Nilsson wrote: |
| I'm as serious as a Mortschlag. :D You'd be most welcome if you ever decide to visit our end of the world. Would love to share ideas and interpretations. |
Martin, Joachim, you guys are really awesome!
I'm that serious as well. I'll put it into my "someday" plans - possibly late '05 or early to mid '06? I could probably manage between a week and three weeks...
Great!!!!
PM sent.
PM sent.
Heres a link to a little videoclip!! where both Jochim and I make Mortschlag in sparring...
http://www.arma.se/Film/JOCKEvsMARTIN.MOV
http://www.arma.se/Film/JOCKEvsMARTIN.MOV
| Martin Wallgren wrote: |
| Heres a link to a little videoclip!! where both Jochim and I make Mortschlag in sparring...
http://www.arma.se/Film/JOCKEvsMARTIN.MOV |
I'd like to add a small disclaimer: The below average form Martin and I are displaying in the clip is due to both of us having suffered a four month hiatus from any serious training. In other words, what you see here is more or less the first combative thing done with sword in hand in a very long time for us. That also explains why the distance in waaay off. Those fencing masks become quite a hassle when one is not used to wearing one. I'd like to return later with better clips once we're back in shape. I am, quite frankly, embarrasad at my poor shape and failure to properly commit in my attacks. Too much hesitation. (I'm the guy on the left btw). There: Now I've critically cut myself down. :) We were basically just taking things slow and just "playing around" due to the long hiatus and wasn't aware we were being filmed. We usually doesn't suck as much as we do in the above clip.
Thanks for the clip, guys! Always nice to wake up to see two friends bashing each other. :p
Oh, and Joachim - it didn't suck, perhaps a tad timid...
Must ask this question - what's the construction of the swords you were using? I know there are some links on AMRA's site regarding sparring weapons. Is it detailed in one of those?
Oh, and Joachim - it didn't suck, perhaps a tad timid...
Must ask this question - what's the construction of the swords you were using? I know there are some links on AMRA's site regarding sparring weapons. Is it detailed in one of those?
| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
|
Oh, and Joachim - it didn't suck, perhaps a tad timid... |
Thanks! :)
I do have very high standards though. Despite being out of the loop for four months. Guess they are a little too high from time to time.
| Quote: |
| Must ask this question - what's the construction of the swords you were using? I know there are some links on AMRA's site regarding sparring weapons. Is it detailed in one of those? |
Yeah, those are roughly based upon ARMAs earlier padded sword design. The particular ones we're using in the clip are constructed by Martin so I think he might be able to give you a slightly better description.
| Joachim Nilsson wrote: | ||||
Thanks! :) I do have very high standards though. Despite being out of the loop for four months. Guess they are a little too high from time to time.
Yeah, those are roughly based upon ARMAs earlier padded sword design. The particular ones we're using in the clip are constructed by Martin so I think he might be able to give you a slightly better description. |
Hi Aaron!
They are constructed like this:
The core is a 2 by 25mm (millimeter) aluminnium "rib" the length of the sword. In this case a little over 122cm. This core is sanwished by two ribbs of wood 4 by 25mm. Pommel is leaded to balans the "sword" the blade is padded with ribbs of closed-cell foam (high-impact cell-foam, the smae product as in some sportshelmets and details on mototbikes) some 8mm thick and the with of the Core. The first 18cm from the tip and the tip is just one layer then it is two. The cross is made of two ribs placed as the wings of a first world war airplane with the CCF in between and around in one layer. the pommel is stdded with CCF. The it is wraped in tape. Don´t remember the english name for it but is is the Silvercolor tape that is quite strong. Just to make them look cool I added black electrician tape to the handle.
The you put on some gloves (hockey, or riot or simillar) a fencingmask or other headgear that provide protection an just get it on...
| Martin Wallgren wrote: |
|
They are constructed like this: The core... The you put on some gloves (hockey, or riot or simillar) a fencingmask or other headgear that provide protection an just get it on... |
Thanks, Martin! I'm pretty positive you are referring to duct tape. Pretty similar to the construction listed on the ARMA site, but a bit different. It seemed in the video clip that they handle fairly well, and without inflicting too much damage on a friendly foe.
Got my hands full this time home with other projects, but may very well attempt to make one (or more) next time I get back home.
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