myArmoury.com - Swiss Guards at France and Rome (1480-1527)

Posts: 448 Location: Sioux City, IA

Wed 20 Dec, 2023 12:51 pm

There's a valid reason for reviving this topic, which is Hans Rüegger's engraving showing two Swiss Guardsmen from Pope Julius's Hundred at the Blessed Sword and Hat Cerimony, dated 1513.

[ Linked Image ]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Heralds_of_Pope_Julius_II_with_Blessed_Sword_and_Hat.PNG

They wear full contemporary plate armor (even sabatons) and a pair of longsword + baselard. For the gifts themselves, it's interesting how the hat used to look like the ones I see associated with the German Prince-Electors. It's also an early depiction of true two handers.

After many years after this discussion, I believe longswords were typically used as sidearms by the Swiss (when one could afford them), but not among Landsknecht. It would perhaps be normal by 1500's knights, as it used to be in the late 15th century.

Luka Borscak wrote:

[It's hard to say how popular sidearms hand and half swords/longswords were among the man at arms. Graphic evidence shows them being used (check Dürers knight and death) but longswords can be balanced in very different ways and you can't Know that just by looking at their profile, so we can't know how easy would be to handle them with one hand when mounted. But we do know some longswords were used like that.

Durer painting seens weird because the light cavalrymen (according to Toby Capwell) is carrying an Oakeshott Type XVIIIb, more commonly known after the Munich Longsword. This is thrust-centric blade 3,8-4,1cm wide at base. I can't see how it would be usefull on horse.

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Ryan S.

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Posts: 393 Location: Germany

Wed 27 Dec, 2023 10:28 am

Luka Borscak wrote:

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Yes, twohanders are smaller and lighter than a halberd, but exactly that is their disadvantage, less reach and power and fencing is not that useful in a formation on a battlefield... But I speak about very early twohanders (late 15th, early 16th century) which are basically big longswords and for a sidearm on your belt, shorter swords are much more practical... And this early, there is no proof of dedicated two handed swordsmen as far as I know...

In cities they would try to ban carrying longswords because it is a provocation, like open carry of a gun in a modern city. And yes, longsword is more dangerous weapon than a long knife or shortsword or something else one might carry. With a longsword one who is skilled could keep several people at bay if he is defending or attack several less armed people. And I speak about pre reformation period, but after reformation, not much changed about this, after reformation changes can be seen on the battlefield, more armies would have dedicated two handed swordsmen...

All the laws that I have read regarding the carrying of weapons in German cities tend to ban "knives, daggers or swords" over a certain length. This may have been because of the ambiguity of the meaning of the German words Messer and Degen, but there are also bans for carrying all knives. I haven’t found a case of a pole arm being banned, but maybe it wasn’t as much of a problem. Knives and swords were status symbols and fashion accessories. Matt Easton has said that spears were banned as weapons of war, but I don’t know his source for that. I don’t think these rules would apply to on duty mercenaries in the employ of the ruler.

Shannon Love wrote:

The battle field use of the Zweihanders was for the wielder to get inside the wall of pointy bits presented by a block of pike or long halberds, and then start chopping the wooden hafts in twain, opening a hole in the block that would allow the contesting block to break into the formation. In the Landsknecht those who wielded the Zweihanders were termed doppelsöldner, meaning double soldier which indicated their increased pay.

That is a common misconception about the term Doppelsöldner. A Doppelsöldner was anyone who received extra pay. It could also apply to scribes and drummers.

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:

I'm not a sixteenth century's italian fashion expert, but they seem much more italian noblemen than swiss soldiers. It was uncommon for them to wear armor or traditional garment? They are not even with their "famous" weapons.

It is possible that this is supposed to represent the highest ranking members of the guard, who would have possibly been noble. Also, if this is painted 6 years after the guard was founded and depicts an event that took place much earlier, then it might not have been the Swiss Guard, but the rather it is the Pope´s bodyguard in 1263 depicted in the style of 1512.

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Ryan S.

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Posts: 393 Location: Germany

Wed 27 Dec, 2023 10:44 am

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:

There's a valid reason for reviving this topic, which is Hans Rüegger's engraving showing two Swiss Guardsmen from Pope Julius's Hundred at the Blessed Sword and Hat Cerimony, dated 1513.

[img]

They wear full contemporary plate armor (even sabatons) and a pair of longsword + baselard. For the gifts themselves, it's interesting how the hat used to look like the ones I see associated with the German Prince-Electors. It's also an early depiction of true two handers.

After many years after this discussion, I believe longswords were typically used as sidearms by the Swiss (when one could afford them), but not among Landsknecht. It would perhaps be normal by 1500's knights, as it used to be in the late 15th century.

Luka Borscak wrote:

[It's hard to say how popular sidearms hand and half swords/longswords were among the man at arms. Graphic evidence shows them being used (check Dürers knight and death) but longswords can be balanced in very different ways and you can't Know that just by looking at their profile, so we can't know how easy would be to handle them with one hand when mounted. But we do know some longswords were used like that.

Durer painting seens weird because the light cavalrymen (according to Toby Capwell) is carrying an Oakeshott Type XVIIIb, more commonly known after the Munich Longsword. This is thrust-centric blade 3,8-4,1cm wide at base. I can't see how it would be usefull on horse.

Why wouldn’t a thrust sword be useful on horse. There are modern calvary swords that are very much for the thrust. I think written records from armouries or muster rolls would be a better source than pictures.

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Pedro Paulo Gaião

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Posts: 448 Location: Sioux City, IA

Mon 01 Jan, 2024 1:42 pm

Ryan S. wrote:

All the laws that I have read regarding the carrying of weapons in German cities tend to ban "knives, daggers or swords" over a certain length. This may have been because of the ambiguity of the meaning of the German words Messer and Degen, but there are also bans for carrying all knives. I haven’t found a case of a pole arm being banned, but maybe it wasn’t as much of a problem. Knives and swords were status symbols and fashion accessories. Matt Easton has said that spears were banned as weapons of war, but I don’t know his source for that. I don’t think these rules would apply to on duty mercenaries in the employ of the ruler.

The Peace Ordinance of Frederick Barbarossa in the 12th century prohibits common folk from carrying swords or spears
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/medieval/peace.asp

I discovered the source because someone was arguing peasants were once banned from OWNING swords, but I couldnt find a single source about it.

In Portugal, the open carry ban didn't included "small weapons", but I dont recall the sources specifying the length, as you have in some German sources I came across. Interestingly, while nobles could carry weapons by the day, even they were banned from doing so at night, where only the townsguard had such right (and well, people shouldnt be walking around at night either)

Source: https://geo.cm-lisboa.pt/index.php?id=7531&fbclid=IwAR2WBJOWrTess9j_CwqKpvNIhrwex6yzqwoJJo79FTdW6N2JhdIiKHNgICY

Ryan S. wrote:

That is a common misconception about the term Doppelsöldner. A Doppelsöldner was anyone who received extra pay. It could also apply to scribes and drummers.

I have heard the same from a Swiss Historian, that basically owning armor meant you were a Doppelsoldner, owning an arquebus (at least in early 16th century) meant you were as well, because of the firearm's investment . Drummers apparently received double pay because they had to be armoured, since they would be targeted by enemy troops in order to cause confusion.

With that said, wikipedia says "The full Landsknecht contingent of Francis I. army in 1515 was initially 17,000 men strong, composed of 12,000 pikemen, 2,000 arquebusiers, 2,000 two-handed swordsmen, and 1,000 halberdiers"

Those Black Band's slaughterswordsmen and halberdiers, while being doubled-paid, were in charge of the reinforce roles for the pike formations, but their numbers are above the recommendation I once saw, saying that for each 400 men, 50 had to be arquebusiers and 50 halberdiers and swordsmen.

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Ryan S.

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Posts: 393 Location: Germany

Mon 22 Jan, 2024 3:26 am

Thanks for the information. The link to the law text is helpful, even though I have heard it before. I am not sure that rustic means commoner here, it is usually translated as farmer. It also only applied for a limited time, and laws by cities could be stricter. Noblemen wouldn’t automatically have the privilege to carry a weapon in a city. The idea that farmers couldn’t own swords is common in Germany.

Also, thanks for the information about Landsknechts. I have long wondered what level of armour was considered "better armoured." Since armoured could just mean "equipped for war" then have a breastplate would be an improvement.

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Neil Melville

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Posts: 221 Location: Scotland

Mon 22 Jan, 2024 10:23 am

My apologies to all enthusiasts of the two-handed sword. I have not had access to 'myArmoury' for a long time and have only just caught up with this post, especially where it is dealing with the history of the two-hander. Some years ago Luka Borscak and I indulged in a long discussion about two-handers which later was transformed into a book: "The Two-handed Sword, History, Design and Use", published in the UK by Pen and Sword in 2019 (still available and you can read its 5* reviews on Amazon).
I discuss its origins (Germany, not Switzerland), its development from a very long simple cross-hilted sword to the huge flamboyant parade swords of the 17th century.I include ways in which it was used and examples of its use in battle and duelling. It will answer most of the questions people ask about these swords in 200+ pages and over 100 illustrations. Electronic versions can be found for about £7 sterling, and hardback printed copy for under £20. You will enjoy reading it!
Neil Melville

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Ryan S.

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Posts: 393 Location: Germany

Wed 03 Jul, 2024 9:47 am

Here is a painting of a Swiss guardsman from 1578. His clothes look similar to depictions of the Electoral Trabants in Saxony. They probably wore armour for battle or on special occasions.

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