Hi everybody,

I am wondering about shamshirs in the mid-15th century to mid-16th century. I'm wondering how different they are from more modern shamshirs. I have three questions.

1) Were the blades different significantly or have they had stasis? I have heard that they used to have a significantly less aggressive curve.

2) Did hilts change much? I know that there is a huge variety of hilts - Persian, Turkish, Syrian, Indian, etc*. but was there much change within these?

*I'm assuming that the shamshir actually existed in all these places in the mid-15th century to mid-16th century...I'm not actually sure that's right though.

Basically, is there a way to date a shamshir just by looking at the design of it (in the way you can figure out, roughly, where it is from based on the design)?

3) Is there a good resource of artwork/examples of shamshirs from the mid-15th century to mid-16th century?

Thank you!

Dan

Shamshirs date back to the 12th century though some will push it back to the 9th century pointing to the Mongols. Blade shape as far as curve to me is about the same, some being deeper, some being shollower but not by a lot.



To your last question google image search will come up with some very nice historical pieces and you can search by century

Thanks for the posts! I just had a look through some the the Met's shamshirs and that was great fun. I wonder if anybody knows of any other museums with a good website presence and a significant number of shamshirs - in particular older ones. I'll have a look at the Hermitage as well.

As for googling...I'm ashamed to admit it but this isn't working for me. For example, if I google 15th century shamshir, I don't get much that actually matches what I am searching. I tried that earlier (before posting) and didn't come up with much...

So I think I have a more narrow focus now after doing a bit of research. What I am looking for now is 15th century Mamluk hilts. Any leads on those would be much appreciated.

One other question that is popping up for me is that it looks like Mamluks also used the kilij (which I thought was a later Turkish invention). Regardless, throughout history, the hilts seem to be interchangeable. Is that right? Are there distinctly kilij vs. scimitar hilts?

Thanks Sean.

Maybe I should say a little more about why I am asking all this. I'm looking into getting a sword made and that book would cost almost as much as the sword. I've gotten in contact with Hamit over at Peserey Handicrafts (which has been recommended a couple times on these forums) and after some back and forth about what I am looking for, I think that a hilt like this one appeals to me (it was actually suggested by Hamit after I sent him one from the royal armouries):

https://i.etsystatic.com/icm/24ab44/432509243/icm_fullxfull.432509243_fobqiltjnlwg04kko4wc.jpg?version=0

It seems to have a few features that come up when looking at Mamluk hilts from that later era of the 15th-16th century. The one thing that is kind of causing me to pause is that I'm not really finding any blades on these sort of hilts that are classic Persian shamshir style curved blades. I'm more seeing slightly curved kilij style blades. So am wondering if slapping that hilt, with a curved shamshir blade is the dream of a madman because it isn't historically plausible...though I have seen some curvy blades (maybe not super curvy though) that come to a finer point in period art...I'm wondering if I need to re-think the project to include a kilij style blade instead. Or, maybe something with a gentler curve (something like you'd see on a Karabela).

This was a weird revelation to come to, if right. Because when you think of a "Mamluk" sword in the modern context, you think of something like a European interpretation of a Persian shamshir...

I guess I should give an update. I have contacted everybody suggested: Manouchehr Khorasani, Da'Mon Stith, the Historical African Martial Arts Association, etc.

Basically I have summarized things in the following way: I am looking for a historically accurate, functional, curved sword replica from the Abbasid Caliphate/Mamluk Sultanate from roughly 1450-1520. We'll see what happens...I've also got a ton of books on a short list that might provide further insights.

Thanks everybody for the tips (keep them coming if you have them!). It has given me a way to narrow down what I am looking for in able to be more specific and also given me some leads. I hope that by the end of this process that I will have a nice contemporary counterpart to the normal 1450-1520 German/Swiss/English stuff I'm normally into!