Hi All,
I just commissioned a new arming sword and I'm trying to figure out what scabbard suspension system would be appropriate for it. I'm hoping to use the sword and scabbard for an impression of a German fencing master, c.1385, and I haven't been able to find any good illustrations of civilian scabbards from that period.
I know these sorts of questions pop up quite frequently on this forum, so if there's a thread discussing late 14th century *civilian* scabbards, please feel free to direct me to it. The only threads I was able to find by searching were discussing either early 14th century scabbards or knightly suspension systems (i. e. plaque belts), neither of which is quite what I'm looking for.
Thanks!
| Dashiell Harrison wrote: |
| Hi All,
I just commissioned a new arming sword and I'm trying to figure out what scabbard suspension system would be appropriate for it. I'm hoping to use the sword and scabbard for an impression of a German fencing master, c.1385, and I haven't been able to find any good illustrations of civilian scabbards from that period. I know these sorts of questions pop up quite frequently on this forum, so if there's a thread discussing late 14th century *civilian* scabbards, please feel free to direct me to it. The only threads I was able to find by searching were discussing either early 14th century scabbards or knightly suspension systems (i. e. plaque belts), neither of which is quite what I'm looking for. Thanks! |
Here you go! Its very simple, just hang it straight up and down.
I am not sure you will be able to find distinct civilian and military ways of wearing a sword or a big knife in medieval and early modern Europe.
The old German thong belt belt persisted until around 1400. You wouldn't be wrong to stick with tried and true, especially for a lower class person. As Sean mentioned, the vertical suspension from a plaque belt was making in-roads in German society by the mid 1300s.
| Harry Marinakis wrote: |
| The old German thong belt belt persisted until around 1400. You wouldn't be wrong to stick with tried and true, especially for a lower class person. As Sean mentioned, the vertical suspension from a plaque belt was making in-roads in German society by the mid 1300s. |
Could you give some examples of suspension from a broad white leather belt with a latchet end close to 1385?
Sword suspensions seem to change rapidly in the later middle ages, probably because the leather parts wear out.
UBK 2° Ms. theol. 4 Weltchronik is from Bavaria around 1385 and shows the standard suspension from 1360 to 1400 (the same one we see on the bishop's sword at the link in my previous post). Its also in BSB Cgm 5 Weltchronik in Versen although that MS is earlier so shows some variety.
| Sean Manning wrote: |
| Could you give some examples of suspension from a broad white leather belt with a latchet end close to 1385? |
Search Manuscript Miniatures. The tied white belts get narrower and less common throughout the German empire towards the mid- late 1300s. But the white belts can still be found here and there.
EDIT: Not sure what you mean by "latchet."
Last edited by Harry Marinakis on Mon 08 Nov, 2021 6:38 am; edited 2 times in total
Germany 1350-1400
No where else do you see this popularity of this style of sword belt.
When the rest of Europe had gone to belt buckles, the Germans were still using knotted belts.
[ Linked Image ]
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/4600/12531
No where else do you see this popularity of this style of sword belt.
When the rest of Europe had gone to belt buckles, the Germans were still using knotted belts.
[ Linked Image ]
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/4600/12531
| Harry Marinakis wrote: |
| Germany 1350-1400
No where else do you see this popularity of this style of sword belt. When the rest of Europe had gone to belt buckles, the Germans were still using knotted belts. [ Linked Image ] https://manuscriptminiatures.com/4600/12531 |
The clothes and fashions in that picture are very early 14th century, not what was worn around 1385. For example, the surcoats are not cut with a waist, just pulled in with a girdle. So either its from around 1350 or its a historical scene where everyone wears grandpas armour (note the label REX DAVID).
Edit: the fashions in that manuscript would have been 'in' around 1320-1340.
Last edited by Sean Manning on Mon 08 Nov, 2021 7:19 am; edited 1 time in total
| Harry Marinakis wrote: | ||
Search Manuscript Miniatures. The tied white belts get narrower and less common throughout the German empire towards the mid- late 1300s. But the white belts can still be found here and there. EDIT: Not sure what you mean by "latchet." |
You made the claim that "The old German thong belt belt persisted until around 1400", so you are obliged to support the claim with specific evidence. I did not make the claim so I am not.
A latchet is a split-ended strap which passes through holes and is knotted closed (MoL-shoes-and-pattens).
Edit: the thread Late Medieval Angled Sword Suspensions is also relevant. It does not cover upright suspensions.
Edit: I had a browse through everything on Manuscript Miniatures from Germany, Austria, or Czechia from 1370 to 1400 (eighteen pages!) and the closest things to the old angled suspensions with a knotted white belt which I saw was BSB Cgm 5 Weltchronik in Versen from 1370. But you might be using different search terms or see something I do not, which is why its better for you to provide evidence for your theory than for someone else to try to refute it.
Thanks for the answers, Sean and Harry.
It's interesting how many of these have a belt looks like a simple one piece, but the sword is depicted hanging at a slant as one might expect from the earlier, two-piece style of belt.
See for instance:
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/4743/9758
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/4703/12745
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/5434/17891
Here's one with the multiple strap configuration:
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/4743/11717#image
And here's one with the two-piece integral belt from 1370
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/5434/17870
It's interesting how many of these have a belt looks like a simple one piece, but the sword is depicted hanging at a slant as one might expect from the earlier, two-piece style of belt.
See for instance:
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/4743/9758
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/4703/12745
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/5434/17891
Here's one with the multiple strap configuration:
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/4743/11717#image
And here's one with the two-piece integral belt from 1370
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/5434/17870
Here is the sum of my knowledge on the wide thong ("latchet") belts in Germany
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=284653#284653
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=284653#284653
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