myArmoury.com - Scabbard decoration on both sides?

Posts: 40

Fri 22 Mar, 2019 7:36 am

Scabbard decoration on both sides?

Hello, are there any examples of scabbard decoration on both sides of the scabbard from the 14th to early 16th century?

Was this ever done?

I know most of the time it is only the side that you are showing off that gets decorated (the front), but surely there has to be some exceptions to this?

Also, was it only tooling that would be done on both sides in this regard, or would fittings such as the throat also be decorated on both sides?

Thank you

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Harry Marinakis

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Posts: 818

Fri 22 Mar, 2019 1:11 pm

I've done a lot of research on scabbards, and I've never seen a decorated back plate.

But I am not the definitive expert on this subject, either.

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Mark Moore

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Posts: 2,294 Location: East backwoods-assed Texas

Fri 22 Mar, 2019 4:39 pm

I can see double-sided decorations on a chape and/or throat, but any tooling would surely get worn down by the back of the scabbard rubbing against the leg....especially an armored leg. :( ............McM

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Sean Manning

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Posts: 894 Location: Austria

Sat 23 Mar, 2019 2:10 am

Harry Marinakis wrote:

I've done a lot of research on scabbards, and I've never seen a decorated back plate.

But I am not the definitive expert on this subject, either.

And only 19% of the 300 scabbard leathers from Leiden and Schleswig (mostly dating to the late 13th and early 14th century) have pressed or cut decoration at all. It seems to have been understood that the leather cover would be replaced several times over the life of the scabbard, so the makers did not put a lot of time into decorating it.

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Hass Fernen

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Posts: 40

Sat 23 Mar, 2019 1:35 pm

Harry Marinakis wrote:

I've done a lot of research on scabbards, and I've never seen a decorated back plate.

But I am not the definitive expert on this subject, either.

Thanks for the reply Harry.

I messaged Dominique Humbert (a french scabbard maker) about this topic as well and he stated " I saw some original pieces decorated both sides but on the back its just a geometric pattern like chevrons or lines" "I’m sorry but thoses pieces are conserved by museums in Germany"

Any idea of the pieces he's talking about?

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Hass Fernen

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Posts: 40

Sat 23 Mar, 2019 1:36 pm

Mark Moore wrote:

I can see double-sided decorations on a chape and/or throat, but any tooling would surely get worn down by the back of the scabbard rubbing against the leg....especially an armored leg. :( ............McM

that is true, i had not considered that. Thanks Mark.

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Hass Fernen

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Posts: 40

Sat 23 Mar, 2019 1:39 pm

Sean Manning wrote:

Harry Marinakis wrote:

I've done a lot of research on scabbards, and I've never seen a decorated back plate.

But I am not the definitive expert on this subject, either.

And only 19% of the 300 scabbard leathers from Leiden and Schleswig (mostly dating to the late 13th and early 14th century) have pressed or cut decoration at all. It seems to have been understood that the leather cover would be replaced several times over the life of the scabbard, so the makers did not put a lot of time into decorating it.

Hey Sean, thanks for the reply. That does make sense.

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Leo Todeschini

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Posts: 1,731 Location: Oxford, UK

Mon 25 Mar, 2019 11:55 am

I have seen one original, but I can't for the life of me remember the exact location, but I used it as the basis for a scabbard I made for the Albion Ljubljana for Soren at Albion Europe and the pictures were provided by PJ for the project and I am certain it was a Scandinavian piece. Late 15th.

Sorry to not be very helpful.

Tod

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Hass Fernen

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Posts: 40

Mon 25 Mar, 2019 12:48 pm

Leo Todeschini wrote:

I have seen one original, but I can't for the life of me remember the exact location, but I used it as the basis for a scabbard I made for the Albion Ljubljana for Soren at Albion Europe and the pictures were provided by PJ for the project and I am certain it was a Scandinavian piece. Late 15th.

Sorry to not be very helpful.

Tod

Thanks for the reply Tod, I have seen the pictures of that scabbard you made. Absolute beauty. Actually that's quite helpful considering I now have something to base off of that was done historically.

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Craig Peters

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Posts: 2,167

Tue 26 Mar, 2019 3:23 am

Sean Manning wrote:

And only 19% of the 300 scabbard leathers from Leiden and Schleswig (mostly dating to the late 13th and early 14th century) have pressed or cut decoration at all. It seems to have been understood that the leather cover would be replaced several times over the life of the scabbard, so the makers did not put a lot of time into decorating it.

Sean,

I feel this post deserves to be in a thread of its own about scabbard decoration. People over-decorate their scabbards, which is a shame given that they have sometimes paid a fair amount of cash for a higher end reproduction sword or custom sword and then botch the historical accuracy merely because they think they ought to "bling" their scabbard.

Obviously, there are risks trying to generalize from these two 14th century finds for the entirety of the medieval era. It may well be that there is a higher proportion of decorated scabbards in the 15th century, for instance, given the increasing aesthetic attention weapons from the time tended to have. There is also the issue of whether the limited decor was specifically for clients who would spend less upon their swords than more aristocratic individuals. Nevertheless, I think there is significant value in using these finds to suggest what is likely for much of the medieval period. Given that shields are primarily what are meant to be decorated and seen, and given the fairly utilitarian nature of medieval swords, having mostly plain scabbards without much decoration makes sense.

myArmoury has the potential to play an important role in trendsetting. If enough people read threads that talk about the relative lack of decoration on medieval scabbards, then the community in general is likely to shift their tastes. This is especially true for re-enactors, many of whom strive to be as accurate and as plausible for the period they are depicting. But even besides re-enactors, a general overall increase in scabbard knowledge will have a collective impact upon the sword community and can help trends towards greater accuracy.

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Sean Manning

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Posts: 894 Location: Austria

Tue 26 Mar, 2019 6:25 am

Craig Peters wrote:

Sean Manning wrote:

And only 19% of the 300 scabbard leathers from Leiden and Schleswig (mostly dating to the late 13th and early 14th century) have pressed or cut decoration at all. It seems to have been understood that the leather cover would be replaced several times over the life of the scabbard, so the makers did not put a lot of time into decorating it.

Sean,

I feel this post deserves to be in a thread of its own about scabbard decoration. People over-decorate their scabbards, which is a shame given that they have sometimes paid a fair amount of cash for a higher end reproduction sword or custom sword and then botch the historical accuracy merely because they think they ought to "bling" their scabbard.

Hi Craig, I am glad it was helpful. I wish I could write up a summary of the German report on Schleswig, and say more about the French guild rules and encyclopedia entries which describe how scabbards are made, but its hard to keep working when there are other paying demands on my writing and research time. I updated the Fashion in the Age of Datini entry for sheaths, but my patreon and paypal are not booming.

There seem to be a number of 15th century scabbards in museums and church treasuries, often tucked away in storage. It would be good for someone to make a list, with photos and the titles of books and articles which describe them. That does not require a lot of training and resources, just the ability to flip through books and search museum database and flickr and talk to scabbardmakers.

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