Posts: 382
Tue 12 Jan, 2016 4:37 pm
| Roger Hooper wrote: |
| Mark, that particular sword really speaks to me. Can anyone give any more information about it? |
It's a striking piece! A comparable physical example from the River Saone, in very poor condition, is held by the Musée Vivant Denon.
I have also identified examples of this type hilt with the finger+knuckle guard in two paintings by Piero della Francesca, dating from around the 1460s, both combined with falchion-like blades.
[ Linked Image ]
http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/p...nt-michael
The sword held by the shirtless fellow in the foreground is exactly similar; easier to see in the zoomable image at the link.
[ Linked Image ]
http://projects.ias.edu/pierotruecross/zoomify/eraclio.html
A similar pommel can be seen on a late 15th altarpiece, combined with a distinctly Spanish style hilt.
[ Linked Image ]
https://www.museodelprado.es/en/the-collection/art-work/the-embarkation-of-james-the-greaters-body-at/9f18a494-914e-4c89-a0ce-dac57787fd29
Last edited by Mark Lewis on Tue 12 Jan, 2016 4:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 828 Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Thu 04 Feb, 2016 1:06 pm
| Mark Lewis wrote: |
| Clive Thomas wrote: | | There are a few examples of the pear-shaped type of pommel in 14th century art, including at least two of nearly similar form on tomb slabs in the Armenian Church in Nicosia, Cyprus (dated 1356 and 1385). The best representations, however, are those on the incised effigial slabs of Sir Lambieres d'Abée in Liège, Belgium (1312), and of Guillaume Tirel at Yvelines, near Paris (1363). |
Here might be another example, from an Italian painting in the Met, circa 1340s. |
It appears to have a grove in the pommel, but when you zoom in you see it is actually a crack in the canvas!
It it actually "rounded"
Posts: 828 Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Fri 11 Mar, 2016 10:40 am
| Mark Lewis wrote: |
Unknown artist and museum.
[ Linked Image ]
The last example also shows Paul gripping the sword with one finger looped over the cross, implying the presence of at least a minimal ricasso, and demonstrating the technique that led to the introduction of the protective finger-ring seen on some Alexandrian sword (and elsewhere). This style of grip appears frequently in 14th century Italian art from at least the 1320s, where it appears in altarpieces by Simone Martini and the Lorenzetti brothers, the leading Sienese artists of the time. |
That is a really good find as the artist have deliberately shown the hand position in clear detail. Shame we don't have more information on the picture.
So the finger grip style starts to be shown in Italian art from the 1320's.
How long until you see finger rings as dominant in art (in Italy or other places)?
So basically is there a long or shot transition period between no ring (with finger position) and finger-ring?
Posts: 828 Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Thu 17 Mar, 2016 7:10 am
| Mark Lewis wrote: |
| Niels Just Rasmussen wrote: | So the finger grip style starts to be shown in Italian art from the 1320's.
How long until you see finger rings as dominant in art (in Italy or other places)?
So basically is there a long or shot transition period between no ring (with finger position) and finger-ring? |
Examples of finger-rings seem as rare in art as surviving physical examples... Most examples in art are Italian, much fewer are Spanish, and a couple are French. Finger-rings become more common later in the 15th century and can be found in paintings by many well known artists of the early Renaissance; by this time more complex hilts were developing in Italy and Spain.
The finger-ring was definitely introduced much earlier however. The earliest example that I know of is a panel in the Met (at far left). The museum's online description is confusing... they date the painting to 1330-35, but a matching panel from the same altar by the same artist is dated to 1340-45. The latter date is given for both panels in print publications.
|
That is interesting that finger rings weren't deemed absolutely necessary for quite some time (over 100 years!).
1) Perhaps because it was the cost (and difficulty?) to add a finger ring on the sword without adding that much extra hand protection (perhaps fighting style still was with very retracted hands, making hand sniping rare occurrences even though you had one exposed finger on the ricasso?
2) When finger rings start to become common in the late 15th century it could reflect a general change in fighting styles were "hand sniping" becomes much more prominent and finger rings now gives you are really important protection?
Posts: 382
Thu 09 Aug, 2018 5:33 am
Another previously unlocated Alexandrian XVIIIc has resurfaced at auction! It shares the same maker's mark that appears on the XVIIIc in the Royal Armouries: the letter P surmounted by a cross potent, twice repeated. It looks like this is the sword shown in the lower left in the photo from the Ottoman armoury, distinguished for the maker's mark and the damaged tip of the blade by Clive Thomas in his 2003 article.
https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=6153918&lid=1
[ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ]
Posts: 49 Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom
Thu 06 Sep, 2018 4:42 pm
Just to update everyone, I had a very close look at the sword in Mark's post above when it was in the storeroom at Christie's back in February of this year. While it is, without any doubts whatsoever, a superb example of this group, it is most definitely not the sword shown on the lower left in the old photo from the 1880s, even though it looks very similar.
It wasn't completely unknown either, although my attention was only drawn to it in mid-2017. It appeared at a Graf Klenau auction on 16th June 1973, Lot 5070, and had been in a private collection in Germany until recently.
Of course, this still means that the one in the old photograph is still 'out there' somewhere, along with several others that have not yet been fully accounted-for!
Posts: 382
Fri 07 Sep, 2018 11:23 am
Thanks for the additional information, Clive! :surprised:
Posts: 49 Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom
Fri 07 Sep, 2018 11:34 am
No problem!
I forgot to say also that the Leeds Castle sword (known by the accession number AL.40.1) is no longer at the Royal Armouries Museum and has presumably been returned to the collection at Leeds Castle, having been on loan to the RA since presumably the 1970s after Lady Olive Baillie, the last owner of Leeds Castle, passed away.
Posts: 3 Location: Udine, Italy
Thu 13 Sep, 2018 5:54 am
Grip
Hello,
I don't want to post a new post on these sword, so I'm just gonna write my question here: what was their original grip like? All those Alexandria type XVIIIc swords have a wooden handle, they seem quite a slim one, were they covered in leather or not?
Posts: 36 Location: FRANCE
Sat 15 Sep, 2018 1:21 am
[quote="Cerjak JL"]
| Mark Lewis wrote: |
Another previously unlocated Alexandrian XVIIIc has resurfaced at auction! It shares the same maker's mark that appears on the XVIIIc in the Royal Armouries: the letter P surmounted by a cross potent, twice repeated. It looks like this is the sword shown in the lower left in the photo from the Ottoman armoury, distinguished for the maker's mark and the damaged tip of the blade by Clive Thomas in his 2003 article.
https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=6153918&lid=1
[ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ] |
Also carrying the same maker's marks the letter P surmounted by a cross potent, twice repeated.
O.L. 71 cm ; blade L. 58 cm; blade width at hilt 7 cm
Grip: one hand about 8 cm
Blade: cross marks in the 2 sides
Pommel : brass pommel ( Oakeshott type Q)
Cross guard 11.7 cm .
[img]]http://myArmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=61838[/img]
Posts: 67 Location: Austin, TX
Fri 05 Oct, 2018 5:35 am
Re: Grip
| William Sambo wrote: |
Hello,
I don't want to post a new post on these sword, so I'm just gonna write my question here: what was their original grip like? All those Alexandria type XVIIIc swords have a wooden handle, they seem quite a slim one, were they covered in leather or not? |
William,
That's a great question and I'm looking forward to the experts' answers, as I'm considering an Alexandria replica build. The grip does seem slim, almost delicate, on these huge XVIIIc blades. Also, I would add to your question, is there an enlarged hole in the base of the pommel, as if the grip extends a bit into the pommel? In the closeup above it appears so, but that could be just a shadow or some dark residue that escaped cleaning.
You
cannot post new topics in this forum
You
cannot reply to topics in this forum
You
cannot edit your posts in this forum
You
cannot delete your posts in this forum
You
cannot vote in polls in this forum
You
cannot attach files in this forum
You
can download files in this forum
Attachment: 110.82 KB