I was going to ask this question on an other thread, but it didn't fit.


My question is, could I have a civil doublet with grand assiette shoulders​, unquilted with only two layers of wool? Because lots of the doublets i see in art look like they are not so thick as the big Charles de blois one, so I think they would just be a layer of wool with a wool or linen lining, as wool is somewhat thick. Or would an unquilted one not have the grand assiette? Would this be a sort of psudo porpoint?

I also wonder how tall the collars can get...

I hope this thread can be here for other such questions from you guys, and for people to give tips on other soft kit pieces.

Thanks for any help! As I'm obviously not an expert...:D

This is sort of what i mean with the doublets.

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4442/9392/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4870/13259/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4870/13258/

EDIT: In my stupidity I used the term 'porpoint' when I knew that a porpoint is always a quilted garment, and what I'm talking about is a nonquilted one. Where I used 'porpoint' it is now changed to 'Doublet'.

Hi Fisher. The garment you're talking about is not a pourpoint. As Mart sheared pointed out recently, "Pourpoint seems to derive from per punctus meaning punctured or sewn through", so by definition a pourpoint is a quilted garment. 14th century clothing is not an area that I know a great deal about, but you might have better luck if you research 14th century doublets or cotehardies.

Thank you for the definition of "porpoint" I might have known and forgot...
The word 'doublet' totally slipped my mind.

What i meant to say (sorry) was pretty much, What IS the unquilted garment I pictured?

Would Something like this be a doublet?
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4053/11451/

It's either a doublet or a cotehardie. I'm not sure. As I said 14th century menswear isn't a subject that I know a great deal about. Perhaps someone else here is more qualified to help you out.

Hi Fisher,
I'm working on a 14thC kit at the moment too. I recently picked up a copy of Sarah Thursfield's book "The medieval taylor's assistant", as well as Tasha Kelly's 'the pourpoint of Charles de Blois". I'd recommend them both.

The three pictures in your original post are typical doublets, ie close fitting, button up, though terminology isn't always as specific as some people would like, so if you're doing internet searches you may wish to try coteharde also.

ed.

Thanks Ed. My own kit will not really get started for a while as it takes some time and money. I'm trying to figure out what I need to make first. And I was thinking of getting both of these books.

But does anyone know how thick the doublet would be, in the main layer of wool? And if maybe they could have a grand assiette. Would that even work?

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k55440899/f333.item
Sixteen Regulations of Armorers, Fabric Armorers, and Helmers of Paris, 1364, Article 9 mentions,

Quote:

Et quieconque fera euvre de gambesine, soit paletot, juppon, jacqués ou houppelandes gamboisiées....

"And whoever shal make works of gamboissing, whether paltok, jupon, or gamboissed houppeland.... " which would indicate a number of names could be applied to quilted armors or garments.

Years ago, I had some early-mid 14th century ones made by Historic Enterprises without grand assiette shoulders, no collar, and made with a linen liner under a velvet shell, with no quilting. These were clearly and plainly not arming jackets. The challenge for you with the examples you linked to is to accomplish the mid-later century full breasted/narrow waist look you are after all but requires strategic quilting/interlining/stuffing to get the decidedly unnatural shape right (unless of course your body is athletically barrel chested, but even then most people with large chest generally have bigger backs/shoulders/upper arms and the look would still be thrown off).

Think of it less like the quilted jack the CdB appears to be, and more like how a modern suit jacket is built. Layers of interlining selectively give it rigidity in places, shape in others, and in absence allow it to move and compress freely in yet others. In the later 14th this seems by visual record more common/prominent compared to the earlier part of the century which seemed to serve as a transition from the more flowing square shapes of the 13th century into the beginnings of true tailoring with an eye to a more natural yet form fitting shape (really not too far removed from high fashion today), leading into the sculptural styles you are referring to here (which then kind of took off and ran in various directions for the next few hundred years with the occasional reset to more subtle before building back up to wild, exaggerated shapes).

Sorry to take so few words to paint 13th to roughly 18th century men's fashion with such broad strokes, but I hope that the why behind the what gives you a better idea as to how to go about the how.

Lastly, generally, it seemed in the earlier 14th collars were little to none, later 14th growing to roughly modern standing collar height, and at the tail end and beyond until the end of the form (specifically looking at nobility and very high fashion) imagery shows some could get crazy tall - like frames the face standing ruffs tall (mostly without the ruffles).

Here is some good info with pictoral examples of 14th/15th century garments with grand assiette construction.

Thanks Simon, I've read that, and Tasha is very knowledgeable. But I am thinking that many of the puffy chests were quite subtle indeed.

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I can't see any of those images even with JS enabled.

A Linen Armouring Project

Figures 13 and 14 of this book http://lerozier.free.fr/gippon.htm contain a pattern which seems to have been made by handling and measuring the pourpont of Charles de Blois. The better modern patterns descend from this one. Its educational to take the proportions of various pieces, and compare them to the proportions in modern patterns ... just like its educational to stare at the four original late 14th century men's garments with a globulose chest, then stare at modern garments inspired by them.

I know... I can't get them to work without just linking to the site. And I didn't have time to do that.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2337/5626/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2370/2025/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/3538/3097/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2946/2619/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/5671/20102/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2341/5632/

And a tall Collar, Though not really what I was thinking of.
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2331/5614/

And I have been doing A LOT of staring.

The grande assiette was meant to produce a very tight-fitting garment without sacrificing mobility/range of motion. It doesn't really have anything to do with padding/stuffing or the lack thereof.

Thanks guys, I will eventually try to make a handsome, black, cotehardie/doublet with grand assiette shoulders​. ;)

eventually...