I noticed that while the wast majority of US Naval swords model 1852 have white grips (whether wood, stingray skin or plastic) there are a few that are black. Does it signify anything? I mean, did the regulations strictly specify the color of the grip or not?

Welcome aboard.

All m1852 officer swords were white grips. Do you have an example of what you see as an 1852 with a black grip? There are a number of other swords that are quite similar that did use dark grips.

Cheers

GC

Like this one:

http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/edged-weapons/3767

Which similar swords that use black grips did you mean?

Or either of these:

http://discussions.mnhs.org/collections/2015/...h-25-1865/

http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/52/lid/1058

http://www.amazon.com/Cold-Steel-Naval-Office...B006Z2KS90

Thanks, I'll have to crack a book ;) I have Peter Tuite's book on the swords, so he must mention any regulation. I imagine it is with change after the American Civil War.

As far as the Cold Steel offering, I wouldn't use them as asource for history. Let me pull the book.

Cheers

GC

Yup, plain as day. March 8, 1852

Sword and Scabbard
For all officers-shall be a cut and thrust blade, not less than twenty-six nor more than twenty-nine inches long, half basket hilt, grip white. Scabbards of black leather, mounting of yellow gilt, and as per pattern.

Repeated again in a following chapter on the pattern swords.

Going further in the book briefly doesn't really mention darker grips but some sharkskin is darker than white ray and some other coverings (silver on some). A leather grip would likely have been a replacement or non-regulation import. Some sharkskin quite dark, more black than gray. Some presentation swords show such variations and certainly the German made swords with darker sharkskin.


Still, the regulation kind of speaks for itself. The ACW still a period when regulations were more of an expectation than an absolute.

Cheers

GC

Glen, thank you for clarification. Could you please explain a few more things:

1. Have there been any significant changes in the regulations of the M 1852 US Navy sword in the last 160+ years? If so, what they were and when did they take place? In other words, do the US Navy sword made today (the reason I included Cold Steel link) and the one made 100-150 years ago follow exactly the same pattern or not?

2. When did the sword regulations became an absolute rather than an expectation? I mean, when it became unacceptable for a Navy officer to show up with a black grip sword?

Thank you again for clarification. I do understand all the issues associated with the Cold Steel and their products. But after seeing a few late 19th - early 20th Century swords with black grips (links provided earlier) I thought they (Cold Steel) were following some pattern/regulation I was not aware of. Or that black grip was reserved for some branch/service within USN. Or something else.

Do you know, when did the sword regulations became an absolute rather than an expectation? I mean, when did it become unacceptable for a Navy officer to show up with a black grip sword? Late 19th Century? Early 20th? The reason I ask is that I currently research one interesting M 1852 Navy sword, whose owner painted the grip white on top of original black skin/leather. I am trying to figure out what could have made him do it.

What you are seeing as black are really dark gray and as mentioned, a factor of the hide and dirt. Exceptions of the stark white after the mid 1900s would have been true anomalies or perhaps a presentation..

I'm not trying to suggest one way or another on a third party sword without seeing it. If the grip is original to the sword, leave it alone. If the grip is black leather, show a picture of it, otherwise you are seeing an older sword with either fish skin or shark, which might look black but is not really.


FWIW, I had painted a white Italian grip black because I wanted to, not to appease any regulation.


Cheers

GC

Do you think this handle was repainted? It belongs to a sword made (most likely) in 1905 or shortly after.

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Peter Tuite's description of the sword mentioned lists it as gray and is of the period I described. I know of no exact date, nor further regulation stipulating absolutes. As you have the book and likely Rankin's as well, I have nothing to really offer past their books.

You might chat up the gentlemen at Sword Forum International and the US Militaria boards.

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forumdisplay...word-Forum


http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index....d-weapons/

Tim Graham is a large scale collector of the middle era US naval swords and has a thread you might enjoy and add too
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.p...72-to-1942
(note: Tim mentions painted fish skin post #15)


Peter Tuite may be reachable as well. I met him very briefly at a Hartford Show some years ago. I have lost track of the website he had up for sale of items.

An analysis of the paint might date rougly when it was altered but not necessarily when, or why.

Cheers

GC

Thank you so much for your help.

In your opinion does the grip of my sword (pictures attached earlier) look repainted or not?

Not having the sword in hand, I am not eager to guess.

What (if any) makers or retailers marks are there.?
What is the width of the blade?
Can you display the blade etch?

I'd rather not guess at all, when you have offered little data on the sword itself and all I have been able to offer is suggestion. Tim, and others, are far more familiar with these, so that suggestion to post to that thread may be of use to you.

Cheers

GC