I joined this forum about a month ago and I have been searching around. After a lot of Internet searches I still don't know if norman one-on-one combat was more similar to viking or more like I.33 stuff? Does anyone have any historical references showing what it was like?

There is basically nothing for the Norman era, nor anything in the 12th or 13th centuries (excluding MS I.33, if we accept the date of 1295 AD) that instructs on sword and shield combat, nor mounted sword and shield, nor lance and shield.

The only sources available are images from the period. However, the number of images showing knights fighting is fairly limited. And the number of images that actually depict two (or more) knights physically striking one another is even fewer- less than three dozen by my estimate. So the evidence is frustratingly thin. That having been said, in the earlier images (especially from the Norman era, rather than Plantagenet era), kite shields are shown facing forwards, turned inwards, and turned outwards. This quite closely matches what we see in later 13th and 14th century manuscripts which depict heater shields being used. The good news is that there are many images showing the usage of sword and heater shield from these later eras, so with a bit of extrapolation, it is possible to reconstruct a plausible fighting form.

That's the best we've got at this time, I'm afraid.

Thanks, that's what I was worried about.

The single best resource online for images of knights and fighting is Manuscript Miniatures: http://www.manuscriptminiatures.com/search/

For the Norman era, there are relatively few images, although there are considerably more if you include the early Plantagenet period, up to the death of Richard the Lionheart. From 1200 onwards, you will find far greater numbers of images of combat. Especially in mid to late 13th century and well into the 14th century, there are numerous good images of combat with sword and heater shield.

Yes, it is very hard to pull useful information from MS I.33. Bucklers are just too small to get a feel for what it is like to fight around a large kite shield.
I've been doing WMA for some years and have to say that the best way to see what you can do, is to make a kite shield (or reasonable facsimile) and start swinging a sword around it. You quickly find out 3 things:

1. The shield is a weapon to use offensively, not something you hide behind.
2. Hold it away from you, or it blocks a great deal of your vision.
3. It's damn heavy! Kill your opponent ASAP before you get tired ;)

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I plan to make a shield press and purchase a purpleheart armory norman waster and do some sparring with one of my partners. Make my own style by trial and error I guess:\

Hey Tanner! That´s quiet a Task to recreate/reconstruct such an old fencing-style! I wish you all the best, and lots of fun (which you will surely have!)

I post this Video, because I think it Shows nicely what Shane Dopson meant when he advised to use the shield offensively.
And Roland gives some nice Points about using the shield in angles.

I hope I could help, even if ist more viking than norman style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkhpqAGdZPc

BTW...I know there are depictions of foot soldiers fighting with kite shields ( Bayeux tapestry...) but I think regarding the shape of the kite shield, it was mainly designed for mounted warriors. Because when you sit on horseback the kiteshield covers the rider from shoulder to ankle.
The riders used to attack a shieldwall by riding alongside, shield side facing the enemy ranks, and stabbing with their Lances towards the enemies. And for that strategy the kite was the perfect cavalery shield.
And the weight of the shield was not only carried on the arm, it was carried with a leather strap around the shoulder.

But surely the kite shield was also used for fighting on foot....just wanted to add some info on that.... ;-)

I planned on getting the hanwei tinker norman sword anyways( can't afford a albion). Any pictures of the strap system on the kite shield? I have experience with two handed swords but not with one handers. Do you guys know any places that make wasters with Brazil nut pommels?

Sure, I can do straps for a kite shield. As you can see, they're all from Manuscript Miniatures. (PS: You really should check it out for yourself.) ;)

http://www.manuscriptminiatures.com/bible-reims-bm-ms23/4956/

http://www.manuscriptminiatures.com/bible-bib-mazarine-ms02/4544/

http://www.manuscriptminiatures.com/tractatus...s291/5041/

http://www.manuscriptminiatures.com/bible-of-...ms14/4308/

Oh I don't mind I would like to know also.

To me it is the principle of "Form follows Function".
At the Battle of Hastings Reenactment they where doing exactly what I described. Riding along the enemy lines, Shield side facing the enemy and stabbing with the lances from overhead.
And it where the Normans as far as I know who introduced cavalery attacks in large scale to the battelfields of western Europe.
The Anglosaxons and Vikings of the day still relied on the old shield wall, even if they arrived at battlefield on horseback.
Normans where the first to breed and train destriers which where only used in battle and not for riding from A to B.
With These changes in warfare, the change of the shield shape from round to kite makes sense to me. And looking at pictures from the Hastings Reenactment I think One could See how well fitted the kite shield for cavalery is.

http://www.ermaktravel.com/Europe/United%20Ki...a94[1].jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LRl3KRRT49o/UHrLvMq...mgres.jpeg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/09/25/art...34x411.jpg

But this should be it on that issue in this thread.....a little Off Topic ;-)
But I'd be happy to continue this discussion in an New thread of its own....

....you asked about the source for good swords.
I can recommend the czech Blacksmith Pavel Moc (www.swords.cz)
Good looking and High quality swords for a good price. You can have Each sword with a blunt or sharpened blade..
Even the blunt swords are quite accurate in weight and balance.
I have three swords from Pavel Moc and I am happy with all of them!

Here is the Hastings.....I guess it is a sword of that type what you are looking for.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=44733

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=44734

It is my impression that kite shields where multipurpose shields. They are just as dominant in depictions of infantry, and their form is probably better suited for use on foot. In fact, it remains in use as a infantry shield long after the shorter heaters have become the standard for cavalry.

When it comes to the use of these shields, the fighting style is different from sword and buckler or longsword, simply because of the nature of the shield and the way you hold it. Of the existing manuals, I.33 would be a good place to start to learn some basic sword handeling and defensive principles with the shield.
There is one(1) source on the use of kite shields in a combat manual, namely in Marozzo's treatise from 1536;
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This posture can be found in some illustrations, and works quite well. From this positon, your attacks are mainly thrusts over the top of the opponents shield (described by marozzo) and fast blows to the side of his head. All else is covered by his shield. The forward tilt of the shield gains you some range. Defence is maintained by moving behind your shield, and covering the targets/angles from which he can strike.

Wow elling that was very helpful!

Thanks christoph, I'll check him out.

The problem I have with using Marozzo to draw conclusions about earlier fighting, is that the techniques illustrated do not seem well suited to the weapons of the earlier era. I think the substantial difference in weapon design would IMO indicate a difference in the way they are being used...

Robin; Marozzo simply uses his genreral purpose 1530s sword with the shield. A sword that is indeed quite unsimilar in appearance to medieval swords.
But the techniques he mentions works perfectly well with shorter blade reenactment swords. Which are LESS similar to the blade he uses that the long bladed type XIs and XIIs that are popular in the heyday of the kite.
These weapons are frequently 90cm+ (36 inches), and thus noticably longer than the one handed swords used in the dark ages or late middle ages.

These extremely long onehanders have been described as cavalry swords, but personaly I would like to try them out in combination with the kite shield. (reference to my kite shield project discussed in another thread.)