ive just finished Agincourt by Bernard Cornwell and he referances shortened lances used by knights on foot and men at arms i was wondering what is the differance between a shotened lance and a spear

In practice, a shortened lance might refer specifically to a longer cavalry weapon that was cut down or refitted with a shorter haft specifically for fighting on foot, as opposed to a spear which would be constructed by default for infantry use.

I saw a "short pike" in a museum once that looked a lot like a spear, but with a more "pike" style head. Like, pointier, less like a blade, with minimized cutting edges. The cynic in me wants to think the museum remounted it to fit in a case better.

In Froissart's Chronicles there are several places where he mentions lances being shortened in order to be used by dismounted knights and men at arms. He often says, quite specifically, that the lances were shortened to five feet in length oddly enough. So it seems to be a relatively well documented/ widely practised tactic I believe.

Actually, a better translation would be "shortened by 5 feet." 5 feet cut off from a typical cavalry lance would give you a spear of typical infantry length, maybe 2.5-3m.

I think you're looking for a definition concerning something that's largely a degree of semantics. The knights in the book needed a spear instead of a lance, so the available lances were shortened into spears. I don't think there's a definition for a purpose built "short lance", it's merely a descriptor the author is using to evoke a mental image for the reader.

Don't over think Cornwells descriptions. His books are good reads, I'm currently reading one myself, but he's a bit off in many of his technical points. They're good historic fiction, not historic reference material.

Chris, the quote is from Froissart's chronicles. I will see if I can dig up the original text for you.
Edit: I can't find it right this moment. Perhaps someone else could help by digging up the original quote about the shortened lances?

Scott,
I realise it is from Froissart's Chronicles. I was asking from which translation/Manuscript you were working from. I was saying that I was using the 1857 translation by Johnes (the earliest translation into english that I am aware of) for my reference. I know there are several places in his Chronicles that mention doing this, so one specific reference is not necessary. I was simply interested how you come to the conclusion that a more accurate translation was shortening by five feet and not to five feet. Just curious if you were translating directly from an existing medieval reference. =)

If some one has the original in e-format I can translate it. I can see how either would work but I always thought 5 feet sounded very short. As well Froissart uses a spears length as a length of measurement on occasion and five feet would seem a small accomplishment so I have always wondered about that.

RPM

Randall,
I do not disagree that it seems a bit short, though maybe a spear length and a shortened lance were different lengths. Unfortunately, I don't have an e-format original as my Palaeography and Medieval Latin are not the best (despite the best efforts of some educators in York :eek: ).

Chris, sorry I was not very clear, I was half asleep I guess. My conclusion was drawn from reading the original text. As I remember, the quote was somewhat vaguely worded, so one could probably make a good argument for either translation. This is all from my own fairly vague memory, so take it with a grain of salt. I can't remember if it was " a cinq pieds" or "de cinq pieds." In the context of 14th-15th century warfare, "by 5 feet" just makes a lot more sense to me than "to 5 feet." A 2.5-3m spear was standard armament for infantry, so why would one shorten ones lance to only 1.5m?

apologize for hijacking the thread alittle but considering were on the topic of shortening lances/ pikes,

id like to ask as someone whoes confused... whats the difference between a long spear held in 2 hands, and a pike?

or more to the point, at what point does a spear become a pike, is there a certain length that once a spear gets to we start calling it a pike (im gonna assume that onjce a pike gets longer than 12 foot its a pike.

or does pike refer purely to the way they're used in a tactical sense?

so the differance is not so much the type of head or length but how its made

Like so many other terms for weapons, it might simply be a matter of which period you are in. The word "pike" is a simple derivate of "pique", or point. The German call it speiß. Also meaning point.

I am not sure if the term "spear" is use in the renaisance; The shorter, 2,5-3m spears where simply called half-pikes.
In short, if you fought with a spear in the 16th century, you would call it a pike, and make it 4-5m long.
A hundred years earlier, the same weapon might have been called a lance, or "huge f'in spear"
Two millenia earlier, it would be a Sarissa.