Given that I'm designing a fantasy weapon, I plopped this into off-topic.
However, I do prefer to be practical and base my designs strongly off of historical finds. And thought I'd bounce my thought off a one handed lochaber axe off of you guys, as I've been a visitor for years, and respect the expertise to be found here.
Anyways, how well would such a design function? I'm thinking of a lochaber axe with its haft shortened to the length of a one handed axe. Pretty much a cleaver with thrusting capability to my thinking.
Short ? How short? A very short handle would make it like a cleaver and sort of an overweight small axe.
Assuming something like this: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...r+Axe+Head
The hook would sort of be useless on a very short weapon as I assume that these hooks where used to pull a Knight off his mount in combat and maybe useful for hanging the weapons for storage in an armoury ?
Medium length handle of about 4' long might make better use of the heavy head.
Design details like making the head proportionally lighter and smaller and giving it a longer point for thrusting ?
If one changes the design too much, it could be " inspired " by the Loachaber Axe but turn into something else ?
Assuming something like this: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...r+Axe+Head
The hook would sort of be useless on a very short weapon as I assume that these hooks where used to pull a Knight off his mount in combat and maybe useful for hanging the weapons for storage in an armoury ?
Medium length handle of about 4' long might make better use of the heavy head.
Design details like making the head proportionally lighter and smaller and giving it a longer point for thrusting ?
If one changes the design too much, it could be " inspired " by the Loachaber Axe but turn into something else ?
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
| Short ? How short? A very short handle would make it like a cleaver and sort of an overweight small axe.
Assuming something like this: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...r+Axe+Head The hook would sort of be useless on a very short weapon as I assume that these hooks where used to pull a Knight off his mount in combat and maybe useful for hanging the weapons for storage in an armoury ? Medium length handle of about 4' long might make better use of the heavy head. Design details like making the head proportionally lighter and smaller and giving it a longer point for thrusting ? If one changes the design too much, it could be " inspired " by the Loachaber Axe but turn into something else ? |
the hook can be useful on even a short weapon for pulling peoples weapons and shields hooking legs maybe
or in an adventurers perspective a hook has practical applications like climbing or pulling stuff, like maybe silently hooking a pair of keys or some other funny scenario..
but that BKS lochbatr id agee is insanely heavy for a 1 handed weapon head, at over a foot long thats getting to the realm of being a very heavy cleaver like sword.
but this assumes the BKS lochbar mirrors what they were really like in terms of weight and length
also a polarms type is determined by shape and distinctive features, rather than size.. i.e the back hook. so a scaled down lochbar as a heavy but still plausible 1 handed axehead could be plausible.
and it also depends on how the character came to get this short handled lochbar? was it because his longer polarm was broken close to the head? was it something he bought as is?
and whoes the character i could see some savage barbarian breaking the shaft of his lochbar near to the base of the head with just enough room for his hand, maybe 2 hands, and using it as a vicious cleaver like sword.
as a comparison, in the sharpe novel sharpes battle one chacracter patrick harper, while rushing french infantry in a town, harper grabs a sargents spontoon (its like a broad spearhead with two lugs at the base and langets), breaking the shaft and using the drastically shortened spontoon like some vicious fighting implement. but this is improvised.
as for thrusting. i would say the BKS lochbar at least is a poor thruster, i mean against soft tissue the sharpness of the blade means that as you thrust at someone it will slice its way through but against anything else it wont do so well, the points simply too stubby and not pronoounced enough, to contrast, daneaxes had quite long horns, this was mostly to increase the blade area but the horn became a nasty thrusting implement in its own right.
the lochbar looks like its meant to be, like you suggested, a cleaver. purely chopping and cutting, with only minor thrusting abilities
but if were looking at weapons that is like a lochbar with more thrusting ability,... might i suggest a voulge. http://www.geocities.ws/wolfram_von_taus/Rese...Voulge.htm this example also has a fluke which is great against armoured opponents
Ah yes, my apologies for being so vague.
I'm not thinking of a weapon to be used by a brutish 'barbarian', so the head may need some slight scaling down. I'm thinking the haft be about a couple feet in length, with the blade about one foot. The haft boasting a recurve, bowing out a little to straiten up for more leverage. At least these are my intentions.
And when it comes to the thrust capability, I just like that option and not something to lean on. Like for an example, the opponent dodges a swipe, but leaves a fine opening for one to deliver a hooking thrust, perhaps into the visor if an armored adversary.
Now speaking of hooks, moving on from the thrusting form to the utility on the top of the weapon. Yes, I do intend to have such on the weapon as a wench to catch shields and a bit of a parrying tool, though the latter in moderation.
As for the character/s? The weapon I tend to be a premier axe weapon used by a civilization of forest elves, of the brand often seen in popular culture, particularly Dungeons & Dragons. Though their name I am still thinking of, I have designed their special forces group, the Sylvan Reapers, who use the axes the most, of which one of the main characters belongs.
She is a ranger, though her primary weapon is a recurved elven war bow, a quiver can hold so many arrows, she tends to -but not always- carry the thrusting axe. It is also usually used in company with a sica knife in her off-hand.
Her fighting style is rather agile and dexterous.
As for the dane, yes I am much fond of such an axe, a favored historical civilization being the Norse. In fact, the protagonist of the book that I'm writing comes from a people that is much inspired by them. An axe he eventually has forged for him is something I best describe as a hybrid between a bearded and a dane, the bottom part bearded, and top boasting a dane's horn. Again for both cutting power, and to have the option of a thrust. With it however, I would say is even more limited, to hooks and uppercut motions.
.
I'm not thinking of a weapon to be used by a brutish 'barbarian', so the head may need some slight scaling down. I'm thinking the haft be about a couple feet in length, with the blade about one foot. The haft boasting a recurve, bowing out a little to straiten up for more leverage. At least these are my intentions.
And when it comes to the thrust capability, I just like that option and not something to lean on. Like for an example, the opponent dodges a swipe, but leaves a fine opening for one to deliver a hooking thrust, perhaps into the visor if an armored adversary.
Now speaking of hooks, moving on from the thrusting form to the utility on the top of the weapon. Yes, I do intend to have such on the weapon as a wench to catch shields and a bit of a parrying tool, though the latter in moderation.
As for the character/s? The weapon I tend to be a premier axe weapon used by a civilization of forest elves, of the brand often seen in popular culture, particularly Dungeons & Dragons. Though their name I am still thinking of, I have designed their special forces group, the Sylvan Reapers, who use the axes the most, of which one of the main characters belongs.
She is a ranger, though her primary weapon is a recurved elven war bow, a quiver can hold so many arrows, she tends to -but not always- carry the thrusting axe. It is also usually used in company with a sica knife in her off-hand.
Her fighting style is rather agile and dexterous.
As for the dane, yes I am much fond of such an axe, a favored historical civilization being the Norse. In fact, the protagonist of the book that I'm writing comes from a people that is much inspired by them. An axe he eventually has forged for him is something I best describe as a hybrid between a bearded and a dane, the bottom part bearded, and top boasting a dane's horn. Again for both cutting power, and to have the option of a thrust. With it however, I would say is even more limited, to hooks and uppercut motions.
.
Last edited by Bob Haynes on Sun 22 Apr, 2012 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
Hmmm, thinking of a large seel headed weapon with a relatively short wooden haft makes me think it is going to be extremely ill-balanced. As a semi-spin-off thought, you may take in consideration an old Italian tool/weapon namded beidana, an all-steel construction cleaver/sword with an array of blade forms and hooks. besides, there is a thing called "fighting cleaver" and if you like I'll be able to post a photo of a historical piece later on. You can also check the Frizzel Brothers web site, they offer various kinds of fantasy & historical inspired axes for the real world: http://www.mineralmountain.com/axes.htm
True, perhaps have the blade halved to about 6', unbalanced might pass in the hands of a heavy-handed brute, so all the more reason to keep it away from being unbalanced, as it's intended to be a light weapon. Sometimes I just need to remember that, knife-like blade or not, an axe isn't a machete, that just because it could be swung with one hand, its not always ideal when not properly balanced.
And yes, I would like to see this fighting cleaver!
The beidana, I looked it up and it looks like an interesting weapon, thanks for sharing. Though not in replacement of the 'hand lochaber', its very much well worth considering using in my book. Possibly as a frequent weapon by an enemy mercenary band.
And yes, I would like to see this fighting cleaver!
The beidana, I looked it up and it looks like an interesting weapon, thanks for sharing. Though not in replacement of the 'hand lochaber', its very much well worth considering using in my book. Possibly as a frequent weapon by an enemy mercenary band.
well if you want axes that are light, and powerful a long haft plus a light head are a good idea.
that being said openwork axes do exist i.e hollow out a majority of the axes blade area. a good example of an openwork axe is that tomahawk wielded in the new assasins creed game, this drastically cuts down on the weight of a weapon,
(google assasins creed 3 and youll see what the tomahawk looks like
note that we have evidence of openwork axes (particularly openwork daneaxes) dating back to at least the viking era .
http://www.focusonit.com.au/files/chushinkai/polearm7.jpg
alternatively look at these items, particularly the third one from the top with the small axehead and the broad swordlike blade.
imagine gripping that like a sword near the base of the langets.
i think it would be an interesting experience, to wield something like that . although the axehead wouldnt do much being so close to the hilt..
also in the holkham picture bible iseaw something you might see to your liking.,
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...ckburn.jpg
lookat the thing on the bottom on the far left, it looks like a narrow yet long bladed glaive like polearm with a hook on the back and a stabbing point as such that guys holding it 2 handed but it might be able to hold it one handed maybe since it doesnt look like a very broad blade and therefore not very heavy,
not only that look at the top centre of the page youllsee an axe with a narrow faced blade but with fluke and topspike.
that being said openwork axes do exist i.e hollow out a majority of the axes blade area. a good example of an openwork axe is that tomahawk wielded in the new assasins creed game, this drastically cuts down on the weight of a weapon,
(google assasins creed 3 and youll see what the tomahawk looks like
note that we have evidence of openwork axes (particularly openwork daneaxes) dating back to at least the viking era .
http://www.focusonit.com.au/files/chushinkai/polearm7.jpg
alternatively look at these items, particularly the third one from the top with the small axehead and the broad swordlike blade.
imagine gripping that like a sword near the base of the langets.
i think it would be an interesting experience, to wield something like that . although the axehead wouldnt do much being so close to the hilt..
also in the holkham picture bible iseaw something you might see to your liking.,
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...ckburn.jpg
lookat the thing on the bottom on the far left, it looks like a narrow yet long bladed glaive like polearm with a hook on the back and a stabbing point as such that guys holding it 2 handed but it might be able to hold it one handed maybe since it doesnt look like a very broad blade and therefore not very heavy,
not only that look at the top centre of the page youllsee an axe with a narrow faced blade but with fluke and topspike.
There you go - with additions:
1. A pair of 'fighting cleavers', the most significant character is a viscious forward point. Their blades are somewhat canted downwards from the handle so the grip is comfortable and natural. The brass fittings counterbalance the blade, and actualy the larger one (33cm overall) feels better.
2. Victorian 'sugar cleaver' - 44cm overall.
3. Brush axe, the blade sharp on both sides. It has a regular felling axe haft, but since the blade is 27cm long and thin, theoreticaly one could weld a back hook and cut the haft in two in order to get a manageble single handed weapon.
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1. A pair of 'fighting cleavers', the most significant character is a viscious forward point. Their blades are somewhat canted downwards from the handle so the grip is comfortable and natural. The brass fittings counterbalance the blade, and actualy the larger one (33cm overall) feels better.
2. Victorian 'sugar cleaver' - 44cm overall.
3. Brush axe, the blade sharp on both sides. It has a regular felling axe haft, but since the blade is 27cm long and thin, theoreticaly one could weld a back hook and cut the haft in two in order to get a manageble single handed weapon.
Attachment: 243.06 KB Attachment: 153.07 KB Attachment: 159.19 KBAn ordinary, agricultural billhook (hedging bill) is just under a foot long plus a handle anywhere between 6 inches and three feet; and it's not at all a problem to use with one hand. Weld a spike on it, give it a longer haft and you have a polearm (in fact a bill is similar in many ways to a Lochaber axe in origin) that can hook cut and thrust - but there is no reason it cannot remain as a short(ish) handled weapon as this is how it started out.
Neil.
Neil.
and i cant remember exactly where but i think i remember an image from somewhere some old manuscript, showing a man holding a military billhook in one hand like a very oddly shaped sword.
if you think of it depending on the shape and size of the polearm, SOME polearm heads can be wielded one handed like a sword.
a good example is that macejowski 'glaive'
and british napoleonic spontoons could function as daggers...
if you think of it depending on the shape and size of the polearm, SOME polearm heads can be wielded one handed like a sword.
a good example is that macejowski 'glaive'
and british napoleonic spontoons could function as daggers...
So this isnt to do with the character Bevere from David Eddings novels ????
I just assumed this when I saw the subject.
I just assumed this when I saw the subject.
I wouldn't say so, Mr Gillies. I'm afraid I haven't even heard of David Eddings or his character.
But anyways, I think I've made my decision just reducing the blade size a bit.
Now If you guys don't mind, while the lochaber axe is what the topic is about, originally to design one that is one-handed, but I'd like to learn a bit about the original weapon.
How well did it function? It reminds me of a 'butcher's glaive' in a manner of speaking, like that cleaving head could do some fine hacking damage, but this is more obvious. Does anyone know how it feels to wield it?
And I how does it function against armor, and not just plate. I mean, like mail, coat-of-plates, brigandine and whatnot.
But anyways, I think I've made my decision just reducing the blade size a bit.
Now If you guys don't mind, while the lochaber axe is what the topic is about, originally to design one that is one-handed, but I'd like to learn a bit about the original weapon.
How well did it function? It reminds me of a 'butcher's glaive' in a manner of speaking, like that cleaving head could do some fine hacking damage, but this is more obvious. Does anyone know how it feels to wield it?
And I how does it function against armor, and not just plate. I mean, like mail, coat-of-plates, brigandine and whatnot.
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