Hi there,

I need your help for a problem I have...

Did it have two handed falchion at the beginning of the XVth century ? Most people will answer "No, but at the beginning of the XVIth century, you have grossemesser etc..." or something like that. It's ok.

But... What's this ? :wtf:

[ Linked Image ]
P.A. 30 - Cy commencent les grans croniques de la genealogie des roys de France (search) (external link)
Folio: 57v
France 1380
Bibliothèque Municipal de Lyon

(guy at right)
[ Linked Image ]
Ms. fr. 77 - Histoire Romaine
Folio: 285v
Paris, France 1400 - 1420
Bibliothèque de Genève

[ Linked Image ]
Français 3 - Bible Historial
Folio: 173
Paris, France 1400 - 1425
Bibliothèque Nationale

[ Linked Image ]
Beginning of the XVth century

[ Linked Image ]
Français 267 - Ab Urbe Condita
Folio: 298v
Paris, France 1400 - 1425
Bibliothèque Nationale

[ Linked Image ]
Français 44 - Facta et Dicta Memorabilia
Folio: 165v
Paris, France 1400 - 1425
Bibliothèque Nationale

[ Linked Image ]
Harley 4431 - The Book of the Queen
Folio: 123
Paris, France 1410 - 1414
British Library


According to some others people I asked this, it seems to be an artistic convention, not something which could make a proof... :blush:

What do you thing about that ?

Similar problem like with Maciejowski Bible 'choppers', 14th century choppers with enclosed guard from "Romance of Alexander" and many other things...

We have some very interesting depictions here and there, but usually nothing more substantial, unfortunately.

I don't recall if this is Oakeshott (Chivalry) or Blair (European/American):

---

 Attachment: 81.42 KB

i do know of the kriegsmesser, wich is the twohanded version of grossmesser,

15th century kriegsmesser:
[ Linked Image ]

as for two handed falchions, i did found this original piece, picture from the musée d'armee in paris, couldn't find it dated thoug

[ Linked Image ]

Thank you, but.. I know these weapons, but kriegmesser is for late XVth-XVIth beginning... My question is for XVth beginning (and why not, late XIVth century) :(

My two cent's worth, for what it's worth :D Yes..manuscript illustrations are often artist's *imagination*, and shouldn't be taken as literally correct, or true. But much of what we know of medieval life is derived from these illustrations. There are several threads here discussing how swords were suspendedt a particular period, and much of what folk claim as correct is derived from manuscript illustration, and backed up by illustrations. Are we to accept that illustrations showing different suspension systems are correct..and yet reject similar illustrations showing weapons with as-yet-undocumented surviving examples ?? You can't have your cake, and eat it too.
Several of the manuscript illustrations shown at the start of this thread clearly show longish, falchion-like swords being wielded two handed and are of the period the author is questioning..the early XVth C. So I'd say Yes..there were 2 handed , falchion-like swords around at the time. I'm not suggesting they were common, lack of actual, surviving weapons makes it likely they were fairly uncommon.

The overall form and pommel seem right for that period. See the discussion here: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ht=cordoba

I don't know if anybody has learned any more about this. I checked the museum site at the time of that link and didn't find it. I don't know if anybody has tried to contact the museum, but if you contact them and get some information, please share it with us!

Does any recognize any of the other pieces in Elnar's picture above well enough to estimate the size of that two hander? At the bottom appears to be sturups. What are they, 5/6 inches across?

Sorry to dig up this topic from grave after like 4 years - but lately I got some news about the Cordoba falchion.

I actually found (on a russian forum) a photograph of it, it seems like it was the main inspiration for the famous Laking drawing:

Picture here

It comes from the book Arms and Armour in Spain II: A Short Survey by Ada Bruhn de Hoffmeyer. In the book there's a (somewhat scarce) description of it:

Quote:

There exist, however, in the archaeological museum of Córdoba a falchion of a different type (Fig. 73), excellent in regard to conservation, found near to Córdoba in river Genil. This sword has a facetted pear-shaped pommel, horizontal and slightly S-shaped quillons and a long, solid single-edged blade, terminating in a yelman. In regard to blade it corresponds well with the so-called Thorpe-falchion in the Castle Museum of Norwich. This type of falchion, different to the Durham and the Catalan especimens, is probably—as said by Mr. R. Ewart Oakeshott about the Thorpe-falchion—of eastern origin. In regard to chronology of the Córdoba-falchion, its pommel and quillons indicate a period about the end of the 14th century.

After that I decided to contact the Cordoba Archaeological Museum, asking for a picture. They sent me one, but unfortunately it was by the "official" and administrative way, and I'm not sure to be legally allowed to show it here. But there is a scale near the falchion on the picture, and total length can be estimated to ca. 92cm (with 70cm for blade, that was originally certainly around 72-73cm because of the broken tip).

So it looks like it was indeed a falchion that could be used with both hands!

Time for a necromancy here.

Reason: I measured the Cordoba Falchion through a museum photograph, like our fellow member, and while there are no specs provided by the museum or visitor, this is the best we can have now:

Blade Length: c. 70,6cm
Clip-point length: c. 18,7cm
(The tip point was corroded, so it could be slighly longer, perhaps +0,6cm).

Blade width at crossguard: c. 4,4cm
Blade width after 20cm: 4,6cm
Blade width by the middle: c. 4,7cm
Blade width at the start of the clip-point: c. 5cm

Grip length: 13cm (+6,7cm of the pommel = 19,7cm)
Crossguard width: 22cm (inclination considered and measured accordingly).
Crossguard length: c. 2,4 -> 2cm (slightly tie-shaped, bigger at the ends and in the center),

Some thoughts: clearly from the Thorpe Falchion sub-group, although its blade is shorter, starts slimmer and doesn't increase as much as the actual Thorpe-river finding.

Guillaume Vauthier wrote:

Quote: This type of falchion, different to the Durham and the Catalan especimens, is probably—as said by Mr. R. Ewart Oakeshott about the Thorpe-falchion—of eastern origin. In regard to chronology of the Córdoba-falchion, its pommel and quillons indicate a period about the end of the 14th century.

I think that's highly unlikely: Nasrid swords we have are all straight and double-edged, earlier were Viking-like or Oakeshott type XII. Sabers are not Arab swords, and wouldn't enter in Islamic Spain as far as we know. The Arab Islamic Straight sword might sometimes have a single edge, but it never gets a clip-point.

By the way, Vaulthier was kinda right for the blade length.