Hi,

I own several Albion swords and I'm thinking about using them for some cutting practice. Therefore I have two questions, I would be glad for some feedback:

a) As far as I know watering the Tatami mats adds densitiy to the material for a more challenging cutting. Are there any drawbacks when cutting dry mats? Some risk for the blade? Or any other drawbacks? I would like to cut them dry because I would do it indoors (not messing arround with dripping mats and flying wet pieces).

b) A friend told me about breaking blades when cutting Tatami mats. How big is the risk? I can't imagine some solid quality swords like the ones from Albion could break facing some straw mats.

Thanks for your help!
Ulli

I understand you're more likely to scratch up your blade when cutting tatami dry. It also won't cut as cleanly because when soaked it adheres to itself.

You can break any sword while cutting tatami. If you swing hard enough with poor edge alignment you can bend the finest swords. I would practice proper technique and edge alignment before taking an expensive blade to tatami. Any properly heat treated blade will allow flex without taking a set, but there's only so much tempering can do if the user doesn't strike edge first. If you have no cutting experience, practice with a waster or something comparable until you can consistently strike with the edge while using power.

I wouldn't try cutting tatami mats first - start with a lighter target, and work your way up. Pumpkins are fun and are very cheap around this time of the year.

Pierre

or even better yet,
may i suggest buying something of a wallhanger, something thats not going to falla apart on the first couple of hits, but you dont care about should it start becoming loose and broken and practice with them on:

jugs and cartons of milk, juice and 'soda' are some of the softest and easiest targets , fruit, like lemons apples and chinese radish are good because they are thin,
even somewhat blunt wallhangers can cut through these without too much effort but use them to ensure your cutting angle is right.

pumpkins and watermelons is a good idea though,

As I see Michael, who's more experienced than me at cutting hasn't posted here yet, I'll give some advice until he does so no accidents happen.

I feel I keep nagging about this every time the subject comes up on the forum, but seriously, read this book first. It's easy reading, it's cheap, it's not written just for eastern martial artists and literally a life saver:
Test cutting for Historical swordsmanship, by Scott Rodell
http://www.chinese-swords-guide.com/test-cutting.html

Since I know most that already own swords and think seriously about cuttng just sit around itching to jump in and do it, not read a book written by some Australian dude, I'll add some of my own experiences and advice I find especially helpful all the same (much of it derived from that excellent book btw). But really, read that book, can't say it enough.

Having done both dry and soaked mat experimental cutting, I'd say dry cutting is more like rending a roll in half with brute force, often resulting in a cracked stake or stand, even with the stake flying off in shattered pieces. It can be fun too sometimes, but it isn't pretty and not what cutting is really about. It isn't the poetry in motion a clean wet roll cut can be and neither is it anything like cutting real meat and bone, which I've also done.
In short, a properly wetted mat is key to successful clean cutting. So is a sharp blade with good edge geometry.

Choosing a suitable sword for cutting
I would never ever perform cutting with a wall hanger. Even a real sharp that you don't know is well made with a wide, strong tang can be very dangerous and can result in fatal accidents when the sword breaks at the handle and the blade goes flying off like a razor sharp spinning projectile. With a wall hanger this is almost a certainty as they tend to have rat tangs and/or welded on tangs. These can even break from just a quick jerk with the handle as can be seen on youtube.
There are ways to shorten and re-build most wall hangers to something more durable. But why bother when there are good blades to be had today at fairly low cost. Just build a replacement blade sword or buy a less expensive sharp complete sword.
Any real Albion sharps (made by Albion, not just sold by them) are excellent for cutting. Just put a keen edge on it and they're good to go.

Testing an unproven blade
You can test a sword you want to use with first light cutting into a branch log. If you see no damage to the sword, try a little harder, then check again. Then increase a little at a time and see if it can take it. When doing this, only cut once, then check, then again, with control and a direcion of cut that won't let a broken blade hit anyone. Don't do this full force, swords aren't axes and not really meant to chop wood after all. But usually if this is a crappy blade it'll be quite enough to show if the tang deforms at low impact or if things come loose entirely.

The stand
Traditional tatami stands are a good start, instrucitons on how to build them are on the web.
Other varants are straw men, with a green bamboo core and a plumbing pipe built into a base to stick it in if you want fancy, or a hole in the ground if you want to be cheap and have access to soft enough earth.
A quick way to get started is to use poles you just hammer into the ground, sharpen the top and attach the mat roll. This should not go in more than a foot or so or it interferes with cutting. However, with a thin pole it flexes and causes cuts to be harder to get perfectly straight through the mat.

The mat preparation
A mat should always be prepared correctly or it won't cut well.

1. Roll it as tight as you can by hand.
2. Tie it dry and with a material that's strong but cuttable. Plastic stripes or twined cotton cloth are those I find work best. Others use extra strong rubber bands or leather cord.
3. Soak under surface for 12 hours
4. Dry for an hour so wet level is uniform throughout the roll.
5. Ready to cut, so put it on the peg of the stand peg, or on a good solid pole.

Sword preparation
Forget "sword sharp" if you're cutting tatamis. Sharpen the blade to razor sharp, it needs to be able to cut a sheet of paper clean in half. Though only one side for starters.

Not used to double edged sharps?
This one will seem obvious -only sharpen one side to begin with.

Safety procedure
5 meters to all directions need to be free of other peple and obstacles when cutting. Always have a spotter to help keep others away, especially from walkng up from behind of the cutter as that is the biggest danger. A sharp blade is equal to a loaded gun, so treat it with the same respect as a firearm at a range.

How to stand with your legs (so they don't get cut...)
When beginnng learning to cut, don't step in, bounce or walk around, but stand still, and put the same foot forward as the primary hand you're holding the sword. This lessens the risk of the cut coming into contact with your legs as you pass through (or miss) the target.

How the blade needs to be angled to cut clean, and how to practice it
The blade needs to have a straight path through the target, so don't "J" it by jerking or twisting it as it goes through. You can still cut plastic bottles while doing this, but a tatami roll will catch the blade if you do. With enough power it still tears, but that's not what we want when cutting, we want it to be a clean cut.
The best way to train with is with soft plastic bottles. Smoothie bottles are my favorite, but I find most white semi transparent bottles work well. PET bottles can work too but vary a lot in how much they flex or resist cutting while the others are mor uniform. Cut a bottle and see if the cut has a tear or if it goes through all the way. Most bottles flex a little so a slight wave to the cut is fine, but if it looks at all torn rather than cut you're doing it wrong.

Hope that helps and answers most questions. Also, see that book, you really can't go wrong with that one.

Thanks Steve!

So Scott is American, should have figured that really. Actually I think someone's already said that in anothe rcutting thread now that I think about it. Yet another reason to read his book perhaps? ;)
But seriously, that book helped me so much, he's an amazing written instruction teacher.

Thank you for all your replies! Johan - very helpful post, thank you.

So you all got me first back to reading before my first cut... I'll do! I probably won't buy another sword for cutting, I think and hope the ones from Albion are robust enough for a beginner like me.

Is it really necessary to additionally sharpen the Albions for cutting? They seem very sharp to me. I'm a bit nervous about sharpening - I have no experience with it.

What's better for a beginner - one-handed or two-handed swords? I guess two-handed for easier control? myArmoury gives me the choice between:
- Oakeshott
- Vassal
- Munich
- Dane

Perhaps a difficulty rating for those swords could be helpful!

Just another thought about breaking blades: I just can't imagine having an Albion sword (or similar quality sword) breaks when hitting a (I grant solid) tatami mat. Doesn't it just fly out the stand? (when putting the mat on a stick for just some inches deep). Did anyone witness such a break with an Albion or similar or heard about? Please don't flame my lack of seeing reason - last question from my side regarding breaking! ;-)

Cheers from Munich,
Ulli

An Albion should be great for cutting tatami,

I'm with you Ulli, regarding the question of additional sharpening. I know many folks around here feel fine sharpening their swords but I certainly wouldn't do it myself for fear of messing up the aesthetics of the edge. I've attempted to sharpen a sword or two in the past and wasn't happy with the result (created scratches on the edge or wandering lines). I believe I'm just not steady enough with the edge angle.

I have sharpened eating knives wit good effect but not swords.

If you want to see what an off the shelf Albion Knight can do to tatami they provide a link on their Knight page. Download and enjoy, it really is quite spectacular.

My first "sword" was a wallhanger. It felt quite nice in the hand, until I got it home and took a half decent swing with it, at which point the blade promptly rotated in the grip. I then filled the hilt with epoxy and glued every single piece to each other, after which I (knowing the likely result and doing it alone so as not to endanger others) eventually took it outside and pruned a hedge with it. The join between the rat-tail tang and blade bent and the little zinc clip thing that held the blade just cracked and came apart.

In this case the whole thing barely held together and I pulled the blade off with my bare hands, but it could just as easily went flying. I imagine had I not epoxied everything together that would have been the more likely result (if I could have gotten to the pruning stage with the blade constantly rotating on me).

What am I saying here? Cheap wallhanger bad. Yes, you can get something better than what I had, something full-tang and one-piece. Yes, it's true that some people ignorantly use and horribly abuse these kinds of "swords" without ever having a problem, but the risk is much greater and not in my opinion worth taking.

(I think it is terribly unfair that some people can abuse a wallhanger and never have a problem, but others get an expensive well-made sword that breaks in short order with only light use. Life isn't fair. Nothing is for sure, we're just playing the odds, and sometimes even with the odds stacked in our favor things don't work out. Random observation...)

Easiest way to sharpen a sword is with an Accusharp. It takes mininal practice to get right and can sharpen any good blade from dull to razor sharpness. If you want that of course.

funnily enough one of my 'wallhangers' wasnt too bad, it had silver fittings, and was a jian type sword, it had what could rightly be called a rat tail tang that was a BOLT, weldedto the base of the blade, still had most of the bolt head visible at the base of the blade, later i had it rewelded and smoothed down to make it more secure, and despite my abuse of it, its faired very well.
i have videos cutting a lemon, milk bottles, a small pumpkin, plus a few other things, look up elgostine on youtube to see me go at it.
and the the cuts were done while the sword was BLUNT, just keep that in mind

heres where it falls down, no it wasnt the tang, thats still fine, the blade is stainless steel, but, it has a decent level of flex but it is developing a set because i was silly enough to throw it like a spear into the ground where it swayed like a pendulum.
where it fell down was the hilt, the hilt was hollow cast mettal i dunno what kind, proobably cast iron of some sort, with a plate with a hole in itat the base of the hilt for the tang to pass through and use nuts to keep the sword tensioned together,
this plate broke, because duue to use it periodically got loose so i re tightened the nut and at one point the tension broke that plate so the sword now lies idle until i can rehilt it or weld another such plate to the base of the hilt, because otherwise, its a pretty, and not atrociously made sword for 35$ at the local markets, and i REALLY miss swinging it around, it, if nothing else because it handles well and really challenged my bottle cutting skills, due to it being blunt, it could still thrust like a fiend though..

OTHER swords wernt so lucky, for instance this amazingly bad set of 3 swords (whole set 18$) long short and dagger sized, the longest one had a blade so short it could have been a wakizashi, but had a hilt and sheath katana length so i dubbed it the 'ninjato' due to resemblences to the cheness oniyuri.

but the grip was a plastic tube with one end sealed off to give a place for the tang to hold the whole thing together,
needless to say it was horrible, and i just cut off the tang and im turning THAT into a tactical dagger of sorts, and it performs quite well in this role.

since starting reenacting ive stopped trying to buy wallhangers, prefferring to save my money for my kit.


oh, btw, seconding the reccomendation for the use of the accusharp, it made my second jian wallhanger nice and razor sharp,, but because it was a smaller version than he first one, it just doesnt perform as well as the first one did when it was blunt.

Wallhangers would be good for practicing *sharpening* on, since you're less likely to cry over a mangled edge :)

As for sharpness in general: IMO it's best to start with something as sharp as possible. In other words, make it so that any failures to cut are the result of user error, NOT the tool. Therefore it becomes easier to learn what it is you need to adjust in order to affect a proper cut. After you learn how to cut, it's much easier to cut with a duller blade, or a sword with a blade geometry that is less forgiving.. but don't start off with extra challenges; you're likely to frustrate yourself or learn less-than-ideal technique.

Others have given you good advice so I won't duplicate.

You can't break a sword cutting tatami unless it's crap, but you can bend one. So don't start with tatami, start with Bugei wara. It is much easier and more forgiving but offers the same benefits.

Here is a video to help you prepare mats. If you use wara you will not be able to find a container that fits so you will need to use your bathtub.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtAovo5fy4A

Albions should be sharp enough from the factory and you can always send it to them if it is or when it gets dull.

Be safe.

Michael, good to see you here!
I just came across this tatami cutting text of yours and it's so good it really deserves a link posted.

http://newyorklongsword.com/articles/cm.pdf

Hope that's ok with you, or I can remove it? I just found the link with Google and I don't know if it's meant only for your own group.


I found Bugei also sells a mat roller these days that looks interesting. Have you tried these?

[ Linked Image ]

http://www.bugei.com/tameshigiri-mat-roller-1119-prd0.htm