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Posts: 1,731 Location: Oxford, UK

Wed 03 Aug, 2011 12:24 pm

Very very long dagger reproduction

Hi All,

I have just finished this dagger that I have been working on for a while.

It was based on a few examples where the pommels seem very similar, so it was obviously a recognisable style at the time, but one that very few examples have come down to us.

The most notable thing is obviously the length of the blade at 58cm (23.5") it is almost a short sword and the breadth of the blade also makes this a very sword like dagger; almost a mini hand and a half. The blade is spring steel and is 30mm wide by 8mm thick at the guard. The guard is steel and the pommel is bronze. The grip is box wood with a leather cover and the scabbard is poplar with bronze fittings.

I have included a couple of the inspiration pieces for this to show I did not just make it up! The circle with rays is on a couple of pommels and the star with dots is on another.

I hope you like it.

Tod

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Dagger Archaeology.jpg

Dagger Archaeology.jpg

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Museum Berlin 2.jpg

Museum Berlin 2.jpg

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Museum Berlin 3.jpg

Museum Berlin 3.jpg

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long dag 1.jpg

long dag 1.jpg

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long dag 2.jpg

long dag 2.jpg

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long dag 3.jpg

long dag 3.jpg

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long dag 4.jpg

long dag 4.jpg

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long dag 5.jpg

long dag 5.jpg

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Justin H. Núñez

Posts: 142 Location: Hyde Park, UT

Wed 03 Aug, 2011 12:39 pm

That is a very beautiful piece. It is good to see out of the ordinary things and things that shake up our usual 32 in blade-40 in overall world. That looks like a piece that was created out of necessity. I like the pommel. Can you give us a picture of the finial on the scabbard chape? It also looks elegant.

Nice one.

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Posts: 3,646 Location: Midwest

Wed 03 Aug, 2011 7:03 pm

Looks very neat and I'm a big fan of over-sized daggers. Don't know that there was any practicality to them, but I like them anyway. :D :cool:

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Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada

Wed 03 Aug, 2011 7:25 pm

Joe Fults wrote:

Looks very neat and I'm a big fan of over-sized daggers. Don't know that there was any practicality to them, but I like them anyway. :D :cool:

Also very much like big or long daggers and at times with a very very long bladed one it becomes a bit ambiguous to call them daggers versusr short swords.

Very nice work Leo. :D :cool:

Oh, took a dagger and wresting class last year and the instructor mentioned ( demonstrated also ) that when using the ice pic grip with a very long blade many of the blocks don't work well or at all because the normal blocks to the forearm won't be able to reach the forearm without the blade ending up quite a few inches into the body of the defender: When the blade reaches 15" it starts becoming impossible to block unless one adapts to using different techniques.

The very long blades in my opinion have to be light so as to make the long daggers quick and agile and when the blades become wider, heavier and thicker then I personally think they become better described as being short swords or need to be used as short swords.

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Anders Backlund

Posts: 629 Location: Sweden

Wed 03 Aug, 2011 9:33 pm

Honestly, at 58 cm I would consider this a short sword. I have a very hard time thinking about a blade longer then my own arm as a "dagger."

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Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada

Thu 04 Aug, 2011 9:03 pm

Anders Backlund wrote:

Honestly, at 58 cm I would consider this a short sword. I have a very hard time thinking about a blade longer then my own arm as a "dagger."

I sort of agree but in some cases I think calling certain long knives, knives, if more traditional than descriptive of function when they overlap the short sword in length or weight. :confused: ;)

Very long knives like the kyber knives are often of sword length for example.

As to my previous post, even a 23" long blade dagger can be used in the ice pic grip I believe, but past the 20" mark they feel weird and unbalanced in this grip unless their COG is very close to the guard.

My custom A&A Rondel dagger at 15" of blade is at the limit I think and my Michael Pikula Cinquedea with it's blade 3 1/2" wide at the guard is functionally a short sword even if we call it a dagger ! ( But then again there where also sword length Cinquedea and very much shorter one that are certainly deserving of being called daggers ).

Well, I guess that is enough splitting hairs or defining how many angels can dance on the point of a pin. ;) :p :lol: :cool:

But whatever we call it, this " dagger " is really impressive work by Leo. :D :cool:

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Posts: 45 Location: Chandler, AZ

Thu 04 Aug, 2011 9:09 pm

That is absolutely beautiful great work i've always loved that dagger design. Its nice to finally see a reproduction.

Last edited by Jared Lambert on Thu 04 Aug, 2011 9:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posts: 1,606 Location: Chicago, Illinois

Thu 04 Aug, 2011 9:27 pm

This piece is super cool. Great job as always Tod! I think I like the guard best. It is proportioned so nicely to the blade.

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Posts: 552 Location: San Jose, CA

Fri 05 Aug, 2011 10:15 am

Excellent work as always Leo, you never fail to impress me with your work!

I am always looking forward to seeing your work and hope you get many more happy commissions.

Best regards,

Bryce Felperin

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Posts: 1,731 Location: Oxford, UK

Sun 07 Aug, 2011 12:12 pm

Thanks guys.

Although it is a monster length, it really is like a scaled down sword; none of the elements of scale or mass make this a full size sword, even a short one. A Katzbalger may be about the same length as this, or a touch longer, but it is definitely a sword, it has the presence and heft of one.

This dagger is a curiosity in that it does not have the presence of a sword and yet is not really nimble enough to be a common dagger. It is not a sword, any that handle it would concurr that, Oakshott calls it a dagger and the hilt is dagger like, so I will settle on that.

There is always somebody who wants one bigger, faster, quicker, taller than the next man and I guess the man who originally comissioned this was that man.

I can live with the description of it being a very very long dagger.

Either way it has been another interesting piece to make.

Tod

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Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada

Mon 08 Aug, 2011 2:04 am

Leo Todeschini wrote:

This dagger is a curiosity in that it does not have the presence of a sword and yet is not really nimble enough to be a common dagger. It is not a sword, any that handle it would concurr that, Oakshott calls it a dagger and the hilt is dagger like, so I will settle on that.

Basically my point earlier that blade length alone can't make the distinction between what is a dagger of a short sword.

A short sword would have more blade presence.

I still think that one could use dagger techniques and in period the ice pic grip was heavily favoured for daggers, although the forward grip was still used: If the blade was even longer if would then start to resemble a small rapier or small sword in function.

But whatever one calls it I think it would be a fast " long Dagger " and with superior reach and very usable in many fight contexts: Probably very good as a light and uncumbersome backup/self-defence weapon for an archer, crossbowman, hangunner, billman or even for a noble. ( It's certainly a piece to " bookmark " as desirable when finances permit. ;) :D )

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Posts: 1,086 Location: Austin TX

Mon 08 Aug, 2011 3:33 am

Another lovely piece Tod!

Really like your grip treatment and the brass pommel. Top notch.

Cheers,

J

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Posts: 3,646 Location: Midwest

Mon 08 Aug, 2011 8:35 pm

Leo Todeschini wrote:

Thanks guys.

There is always somebody who wants one bigger, faster, quicker, taller than the next man and I guess the man who originally commissioned this was that man.

Tod

Midlife crisis dagger then? ;)

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Markus Nußbaumer

Posts: 45 Location: Germany

Mon 08 Aug, 2011 8:43 pm

Wonderful work, Tod, I really love it.
I am with Jean Thibodeau in that I guess it was ment to be a self defence weapon. Swords were, I think, forbidden to carry in some buildings or towns, so this could be some sort of alternative, maybe.
But what I love most about the dagger is the uncommon pommel with its sun and star decoration.

Regards,

Mark

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Markus Nußbaumer

Posts: 45 Location: Germany

Sun 09 Oct, 2011 3:27 am

Hello Everybody,

The long dagger has arrived a few weeks ago and I took time to take some measurements and pictures. I am really pleased with the piece, and except for the length of the blade, the most interesting thing is the pommel, which is very close to the original pommel housed somewhere in the attic of the Historisches Museum in Berlin.
I still could not decide if it is more a dagger or a short sword. The blade is thrusting orientated, no doubt, as a dagger blade should be, and quite thick, so cutting is not the best option. It feels a little like a very short small sword.
Some old scientific article (Zeitschrift für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde) argues that the star symbol on the pommel may have had a highly symbolic character, maybe a membership of a knightly circle (Knights of the Star, around 1367 to 1375). So, hopefully, the original daggers were no mere weapons, but had a high artistic and decorative value. Tod, no doubt, has created a very decorative piece of art.

Mark

Measurements:

Overall length: 73 cm
Blade length: 58 cm
Blade width: 3,4 cm
Grip lenght: 7,5 cm
Pommel: 5,5 cm x 4 cm
Weight: about 0,580 kg
PoB: 10 cm from guard

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Original dagger, supposed to be in the Historisches Museum Bremerhaven, Germany, dated to the 14th century.

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Full length

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Pommel

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Pommel

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Dagger grip and scabbard

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Comparison with Albion Ringeck

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Comparison with rondel dagger

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Posts: 365 Location: Seattle, Wa.

Sun 09 Oct, 2011 9:31 am

Absolutely beautiful work, excellent details. I like that you reproduced a unique historical form for this piece. Well done!

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