http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/weapons/shield.html

above is a site showing two videos abbout shields , one of them looks at the hoplite aspis and why it is the way it is, he also goes into the fact that using a centre grip shield is ALOT better for individual conbat compared to the aspis largely based on the idea that a strapped shield means the maneuverability and range of motions and positions one can cover while upright is limited, for example that one cannot easily intercept a attack to the ankles using an aspis,

(though i realise part of the aspis's problems in in 1v1 style fighting are also partly due to its substantial weight. )

heres my wondering,if what he asserts is correct then, i notice that while they range in size enormously, why would it be that peoples like the knights and the scottish highlanders, used shields like the heater, and the targe, which arnt like kite sheilds that cover your legs, yet still have this strapped cofiguration..

forthosewho have used heaters. and such, what do you think as to why would one use a strap griped shield especially fr the more personal heaters and the round spanish targets. since especiially in the medieval period where individual fighting on the field and in seige operations, is very much individualistic fighting,

I think there are two reasons that heater type shields were strapped to the arm, instead of centrally gripped. The first is that they developed from the kite shield, which were probably too cumbersome to wield with a central grip. The second and probably more important reason is, that heaters, as well as kites, were invented for mounted combat, were one needs to use the left hand to hold the reigns. As for why highlanders used a targe strapped to their arms, this is a question that I have spent much time thinking about, and I'm still not entirely sure why they did it, though some have suggested that it was for ease in carrying it across the rugged terrain of the highlands.r ease in carrying it across the rugged terrain of the highlands.

the heaters though used by cavalrymen unless im not mistaken were alot smaller than say the one elling pold has in his avatar.

would another reason also be that it can allow one with the upper hand, to partially grip a larger weapon. ? in the thread showing shield one person has a heater, and shows him holding it while holding a glaive like item in two hands.

William, AFAIK the heater, which started as a kite shield with it's top curve cut off, was a medium sized shield throughout the 13th century, but it does seem to get gradually smaller untill it was finally dropped from general use in the mid 14th century. As far as using a shield strapped to the arm while wielding a polearm, I have seen a 16th century Italian manual (I think it was marozzo sp?) which has a man using a spear with two hands, with a target strapped to his left arm.ear with two hands, with a target strapped to his left arm.

That guy doesn't know what he's talking about, concerning a lot of things.

Avete!

Yeah, I like Lloyd and he makes some good points sometimes, but I think he's wrong about the aspis being "blinking useless" in single combat. It might not be optimal! But a couple points:

--Simply straightening the left arm makes the shield rotate downwards to cover the legs. No crouching needed.
--Greaves were a traditional part of the panoply.
--Spears were usually used OVERhand, not underhand as he says, so the legs are much less likely to be targeted.
--In any single combat between hoplites, BOTH would have the same shield, so neither would have a significant advantage.

As I pointed out in the other thread, the weight wasn't a problem.

Couldn't tell you about the Scottish targe--maybe it developed from the Renaissance targe which was strapped to the arm by pikemen? And probably a lot of Highlanders fought without a targe at all, so having one was not seen as a problem for the legs but simply a bonus for the rest of the body.

Oops, gotta run!

Matthew

Matthew, would you mind linking me to all these weight of aspis threads? It sounds like something I would like to read.

The historic combat manuals I've read, which say little or nothing about shield work, say the best way to deal with someone who cuts to your leg is to slip the targeted leg back and cut him in the head or his sword arm. This works because the angle created when you cut to the ankle shortens the sword range when compared to someone cutting to your head. So being able to defend your legs with your shield may be less important when fighting one one then controlling range the fight happens at.

If you strap a shield to your arm you should be able to carry a heavier shield because part of the weight would be carried closer to the elbow then with a center boss although it will be harder to throw that shield away if its time to run.

I think many of www.lloydianaspects.co.uk observations are based on the particular reenactment/sport form that he has practices. Last time I looked there was very little technical evidence for how large shield where used historically. I get the feeling that he holds his shield flat to the opponent, how he hits with the boss and how he uses the shield to blind the opponent, just how he holds the shield in this very short youtube , there are other ways to use the shield. There are two articles in SPADA i and SPADA ii by Stephen Hand and Paul Wagner. I also like http://www.hammaborg.de/en/index.php I am sure there are others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-Ms9RMH7IA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzTsGYFzMLY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPpYDEBvaiQ

mackenzie

From the little I've bothered watching of Lloyd, it seems that he is basing his theories on his experiences with dark age reenactment fighting. Which would be roughly the same rules as my group is fighting by.
Most importantly, the system does not involve head hits, which he totaly seems to disregard in his analysis.

It also seems that he has no experience with using a strapped shield, or has ever fought someone that did. We use kite and heater shields in in the 2x3 to 2x4 foot range (2x2, counting my late cavaly heater, which is not the one in the avatar, but has the same design on the front), with armstraps. These perform admirably, and give a lot better controll than center gripped shields of the same size.
The guard stance is also a lot tighter than with a center griped shield, focusing on passive rather than active defence.

When it comes to the overhand/underhand debate, we have done some experimentation. Our finds so far indicate that the underhand grip is better for pushing and overwhelming an opponent, whereass overhand is better for "fencing" at range.
We are also planning to gather as many people with fencing masks as we can get hold of at the next major training event we are going to, to try shieldwall fighting with face hits.
Documentation will be made available :D

in the new varangian guard, i think the general rule is you MUST have at least a helmet , groin protection and a weapon, shield is highly reccomended, and everything else is interchangable.
i remember a video of lloyds where he makes commentary of a reenactment fight and i notice now that not everyone had headgear most had helmets, some were even bareheaded which might explain that rule we all have helmets so hits, at least to the top of the head are allowed, no ringing his to the side of the head. and since most are spangens with just a nasal, no face attacks either meaning the starting weapons are one handed axe then sword then if your deemed safe enough to wield it, spear and two handed axe
partly de to their danger as offensive weapons, and partly due to the fact you have to discard your shield. which means you have to be alot more skilled at defending yourself.
we eschew the use of fencing masks, the idea being that we dont want to become complacent about the risks of hiting people in the face when using the spear

Only one point to make. Dealing with the strapped targes of the Scotts. It has been to my experience having fought with a large rage of weapons and armor types, that with the light armor of the Scotish Highlands you MUST be more aggressive in fighting. That having been said, the shield is at times just as important as an offence weapon as it is a defence. When using a shield for offence you simply have better control. Also in many cases the Scottish cavalry was also their infantry. So the flexibility given by straps allows them to switch back and forth from mounted and ground fighting and allows a larger range of weapons usage. in fact I have recently finished a small targe for my wife that straps to her wrist when she is using her two handed war hammer. It also works great with her long sword and short sword.

A further experience when it comes to staped vs round shields is that they lend themselves to different kinds of guards or fighting styles.

The way we use heaters, we hold them in a quite tight guard, with the upper edge at the height of the shoulder (or chin, if using head targets), and the right corner covering the hand in a fashion simmilar to the I.33 halfshield guard. this is a very strong defensive position.

Marozzo shows a kite shield guard that is similar, with the bottom of the shield angled outwards, and the sword hand at waist height. This guard also works well in single combat; the angle of the shield protects the legs from drop-down attacks.
Marozzo's mode of defence is also the same as ours; Move your body as to place the shield between you and the opponent, and launch a counterattack.

An apis shield would presumably have been used in the same fashion. its shape and size lends itself very well to be used as static cover from the shoulder to knee.
This can also be seen in conjuction with other hoplite equipment; a helmet wich covers the side of the head, and leg greaves.(sometimes only for the left foot). The helmet as an integral part of a shieldman's guard is often ignored, but can be quite important: A hoplite in his guard position would be very well covered.
The strap arangement would also let him move his shield edge to cover his hands.

As noted Lloyd hold his round shield flat in front of him. This works with small round shields with limited target areas, but is tiring and not very efficient, as you have little controll over the edges of the shield. A firm spear thrust would knock such a guard right open. It also lets your opponent "hinge" over your shield edge, or sidestep and bypass the shield alltogether.