Hello Everyone

According to Carpini, the arrows used by the Mongols were particularly hard and capable of piercing mail. Assuming that the Mongol victory at Liegnitz was in part due to that fact, what would the Mamluks have done to counter this?

Obviously the Mamluks themselves were mounted archers, but they also incorporated heavy cavalry elements and depended heavily on charges. I am quite sure that the Mamluks overcame the Mongols easily enough in close combat. But I would like to know how they would have dealt with the lethality of the Mongol arrows. Would the combination of leather lamellar and mail be enough to stop most mongol arrows?

If you read further you'll see that Carpini specifically said that "double mail" was capable of resisting those arrows. There is little evidence of both mail and lamellar being worn together in the Middle East. You see mail being more prevalent in southern regions and lamellar in northern regions.

There is documentary evidence of Middle Eastern fighters wearing two layers of mail. Nobody actually knows what is meant by the term "double mail".

I found quite a few sources that claim that lammelar armour was worn over mail. Most of the time a corselet not a full suit. The Mamuks adopted lammelar suits from the mongols, heck some mamluks were mongol refugees. Most of them were Turks though so many arms and armour were in that fashion. About the double mail, most of the time it is a Khazaghand with a frankish mail insite and of top of that a smaller one with short sleeves. A Khazagand being a sort of standard armour for the Faris and other wealthier troops including mamluks and arabs. The Khzaghand consisted of a few layers, it had a padding, one or two mail layers an inner layer and an outer lyer of a rich fabric like Silk or Brocade. An extra layer of Silk was applied to counter arrows. A method already used in the east frequently.

What I read about the Mamluks itself was that indeed they had bigger stronger horses, and in a charge surtenly had the upperhand. They drew the Mongols frequently in traps to use that charge. The Mongol horses wernt used to the rocky dessert and that is what the Mamlus often choose as battefieds. Also what I found weird was that the Mamluks used their horsearchers as a steady force, or standing still, or dismounted. Not on the move like the mongols.

According to Terence Wise in 'The armies of the Crusades' Mamluk Amirs often wore a mail hauberk on top of a mail corselet made of thicker rings. Though I don't know from which primary source he based this on. I can imagine this double layer mail stopping arrows fired from even the strongest of bows.

Sure, it would be a good idea to use thick and large rings underneath (to stop high energy weapons with large warheads like lances) and smaller rings above in a different layer (against lower energy weapons with smaller warheads like bolts and arrows). But against arrows, bolts and blows, wouldn't some additional leather or fibres above and underneath the iron rings be a better choice? You could even reinforce it with some suitable plates or rings out of metal (that could also be called mail). See, the images show lamellar armour, but I'm not sure, I see all that is underneath. Another consideration would be heat, expense and weigth. Take some padding underneath, a mail with thick and large rings above and some leather lamelar armour above that can possibly be reinforced by metal plates with punched holes in vital areas. Given their climate, ressources, technology and the few depictions I know, I guess this to be the most likely construction, but I'm all ears for your sources. And I forgot to mention, cover the metal parts so they don't get too hot to touch, so I doubt you always see metal in the images despite of its presence.

Its difficult to retrace my steps, I read in Oriental Arms of Robinson, he refers to a silver plate depicting a warrior with a lamel armour with a short sleeved mail underneath. From what i can remember was that troops wore a Khazaghand in combination with a lammelar corselet. The kazaghand being either with a single or double mail with padding filling. I might have took some info from Osprey books.

As a sidenote, would lammelar not be a wiser choice stopping weapons?

Thnx Dan for the info about mail and lammelar, I dont know how it responds in real battle. My believe is that it was more resistant versus arrowheads and piercing weapons. Hence my interpretation about the combination of the two working together. Im still working on my Mamluk reanactment kit. Im making a Khazaghand. Maybe if you could provide me with some additional information regarding armour of Mamluks 13,14th century that would be awesome. Osprey books state they wore lammelar up to the 15th century, after that they slowly adopted mail and plate.

Kind regards

Actually yes they did wear multiple layers of mail and also lamellar corslets over mail. The Byzantines called the latter 'Klibanion'.

One example from a primary source that i can think of off of the top of my head is when Usama ibn Munqidh describes a " jazeraint" armor he had consisting of a frankish mail shirt over an arabic mail shirt with silk and rabit fur.

He also famously describes anecdotes where Frankish "doubled mail" resisted spear thrusts and several accoutns of both Frankish and Arabic mail resisting lance thrusts in cavalry fights.

I think the principle purpose of lamellar is as protection from arrows.

In Europe I think the equivalent was a heavier gambeson worn over the mail. I've seen some tests done (posted on here) which indicates this is a potent protection against arrows and prevents the mail itself from being damaged.

Lamellar also has the advantage of being relatively easy to repair.

J