myArmoury.com - The target cutting thread

Posts: 793 Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Tue 10 May, 2011 9:15 am

The target cutting thread

Hi all,
I couldn't find a thread about this so I'm starting one here.
I made some modest target cutting videos a couple fo weeks ago and I've just posted them on youtube. I'm no James "superman" Williams so don't expect too much. ;)
My hope is to have others post theirs as well and to get a good discussion rolling on the subject, from a practical point of view such as edge sharpening, technique and of course the proper preparation, quality and toughness of various targets and such.

This was a spur of the moment video set racing against the fast approaching sundown, so the tatami is only soaked for an hour or so, and only got properly wet and cleanly cuttable in the ends. The bottles are soft plastic juice bottles filled with plain water and hung with thin steel wire.

http://youtu.be/hBE7oe0YTEU

http://youtu.be/I54wr0GqO18

http://youtu.be/IACQh1YZbaI

There are more videos on my yotube channel, but these were the best from that day.

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Tristán Zukowski

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Posts: 41 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY

Wed 11 May, 2011 5:55 am

Quote:

My hope is to have others post theirs as well and to get a good discussion rolling on the subject, from a practical point of view such as edge sharpening, technique and of course the proper preparation, quality and toughness of various targets and such.

Hello Johan,

Speaking from my own experience, the most important factor is technique. That is, all other things being equal (blade, target, alignment of the stars, etc.) failure to cut is almost entirely due to user error. User error can be manifest in any number of small things: edge alignment is certainly one (angle in relation to the plane of the cutting arc); sufficient acceleration of the blade (i.e. powering with the hips not the arms); the dynamics of your grip (which can affect edge alignment and acceleration), and the list goes on.

My own cutting practice has been less about "learning how to cut" and more about "learning how to not interfere with the sword." The sword is, after all, designed to do such things :)

This video may have been posted here a while back, but just in case I'll repost it here in your thread. It's NYHFA's most recent (beginning of April) vid of student cutting practice as part of class: http://youtu.be/T3-wN5m7IiA

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Herbert Schmidt

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Posts: 161 Location: Austria / Europe

Wed 11 May, 2011 8:19 am

As Tristán said it is mostly about eliminating errors. As long as the blade has a decent sharpness you can cut with it.
It has nothing to do with the quality of the blade as such. You can cut with a piece of sharpened sheet metal (you just can't do it repeatedly because it dulls quickly).

So it is all about technique (almost).

Here are some vids of us and me cutting.
There are cutting scenes interspersed throughout most of the videos.

http://www.youtube.com/user/arsliechtenauer?f...iB2snop7iI
http://www.youtube.com/user/arsliechtenauer?f...gWKeK9zKRc
http://www.youtube.com/user/arsliechtenauer?f...Wh-V4cfJV0
http://www.youtube.com/user/arsliechtenauer?f...xj7uDGk6Zw
http://www.youtube.com/user/arsliechtenauer?f...pClcuW7Eb0
http://www.youtube.com/user/arsliechtenauer?f...5EwVzc4AP4

The last two links are purely test cutting.

Herbert

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Johan Gemvik

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Posts: 793 Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Wed 11 May, 2011 9:05 am

These are all great videos! Precisely what I was hoping for when I started the thread.

Tristan, I envy your studio, wish I had a place like that to practice in. As it is now I have friends in the countryside I can practice at whenever I get the time and then dry run at home at slow speed.

Herbert, these videos are almost overwhelming. A Knife fair to die for, huge amounts of great cutting. I also get the impression you guys are one big family which reminds me of my teenage years practicing Aikido where it was much the same with that local group. ;) Love the mix of all sorts of blades and bills, especially the Falx/billhook cutting by the way. I've done seaxes, Katanas, Khukris, and single hand broadswords, but I really should try bills and europeean longswords too.

I find it intriguing that both your groups don't just step and cut but also cut from standstill with obvious hip genereated power. I though this was strictly off limits to HEMA in general, especially the longsword schools? So much so that I was reluctant to post videos of me doing that. Good to see it isn't as that never made much sense to me. As I see it the old proverb "cutting with your entire body" doesn't necessaily mean taking a step, although I certainly do for some, even most types of cuts.

Yes, it's (almost) all about technique, but you can also help it along with other factors.
Properly bound and fully wet rolls being one, another being the use of a sharp blade rather than a semi sharp "sword sharp" one, another being the use of a convex edge as it won't need to be all that sharp to cut easily as Angus Trim pointed out on another forum. Another also being the grip used especially for single hand swords, as it affects blade alignment in the plane of the swing and some grips are better than others to negate blade twist while cutting through a target. The right grip also helps getting the feel of the blade being part of your body.
Most of these aren't a factor with lighter cutting, but the more resistive hard cutting you perform, it becomes all the more important.

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Tristán Zukowski

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Posts: 41 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY

Wed 11 May, 2011 9:16 am

Johan Gemvik wrote:

I find it intriguing that both your groups don't just step and cut but also cut from standstill with obvious hip genereated power. I though this was strictly off limits to HEMA in general, especially the longsword schools?

Well, I'd go with "well-debated" rather than "off limits." :) The fundamental issue is that one should be able to cut under any condition or circumstance, and not just within textbook-perfect parameters.

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Tristán Zukowski

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Posts: 41 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY

Wed 11 May, 2011 9:36 am

Johan Gemvik wrote:

Yes, it's (almost) all about technique, but you can also help it along with other factors.
Properly bound and fully wet rolls being one, another being the use of a sharp blade rather than a semi sharp "sword sharp" one, another being the use of a convex edge as it won't need to be all that sharp to cut easily as Angus Trim pointed out on another forum. Another also being the grip used especially for single hand swords, as it affects blade alignment in the plane of the swing and some grips are better than others to negate blade twist while cutting through a target.

While it's true that different swords have different cutting abilities (for example, the cross section of a type XVa longsword is more resistant to cuts than a XVIa like my Albion Crecy), and different targets offer more or less resistance than others, I personally tend to view these differences as academic. Yes, it's possible to get a sword/target combination that cuts even under bad circumstances.. but then the practitioner has to rethink exactly what he or she is getting out of the exercise. If the purpose is to sever a target, then it's an easy "win."

Regardless of the sword and the object it's cutting, once it starts getting too easy, that's usually a signal that it's time to refine technique. That is, make it harder for yourself, in order to improve something. To give a personal example: in the video I posted above, I cut Oberhau from an over-the-head vom Tag from both the right and left sides. My cut ended, in many cases, in Wechselhut. Currently, I am working on my cuts ending somewhere closer to Alber, which is a much more immediately-defensible place for my sword to be. The challenge (for me) is to decelerate and halt the sword sooner, without sacrificing the velocity necessary to make the cut.

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Tristán Zukowski

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Posts: 41 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY

Wed 11 May, 2011 10:33 am

Tristán Zukowski wrote:

My cut ended, in many cases, in Wechselhut. Currently, I am working on my cuts ending somewhere closer to Alber, which is a much more immediately-defensible place for my sword to be.

OK, to be fair, the ending of the cut is fairly academic in principle too, but my original point remains the same: practice something because it's hard, then when that's no longer hard, practice something else.. because it's hard.

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Herbert Schmidt

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Posts: 161 Location: Austria / Europe

Wed 11 May, 2011 12:57 pm

Johan Gemvik wrote:

Herbert, these videos are almost overwhelming. A Knife fair to die for, huge amounts of great cutting. I also get the impression you guys are one big family which reminds me of my teenage years practicing Aikido where it was much the same with that local group. ;)

The Knife Makers Fair is indeed a wonderful event and we're glad that we are invited every year to give demonstrations. And yes - we are a big family all over europe, as it should be.

Johan Gemvik wrote:

I find it intriguing that both your groups don't just step and cut but also cut from standstill with obvious hip genereated power. I though this was strictly off limits to HEMA in general, especially the longsword schools? So much so that I was reluctant to post videos of me doing that. Good to see it isn't as that never made much sense to me. As I see it the old proverb "cutting with your entire body" doesn't necessaily mean taking a step, although I certainly do for some, even most types of cuts.

Regardless of what you do in swordfighting, the power should always be generated from your body and (almost) never from your arms. So the first step is not to step (if you pardon my pun here). The most difficult is cutting while being in constant motion because the errors tend to build up. Ultimiately the most important thing is to cut as you fight - with the same techniques, movements and force.

Johan Gemvik wrote:

Yes, it's (almost) all about technique, but you can also help it along with other factors.
Properly bound and fully wet rolls being one, another being the use of a sharp blade rather than a semi sharp "sword sharp" one, another being the use of a convex edge as it won't need to be all that sharp to cut easily as Angus Trim pointed out on another forum. Another also being the grip used especially for single hand swords, as it affects blade alignment in the plane of the swing and some grips are better than others to negate blade twist while cutting through a target. The right grip also helps getting the feel of the blade being part of your body.
Most of these aren't a factor with lighter cutting, but the more resistive hard cutting you perform, it becomes all the more important.

Of course the right tool makes the job easier, I won't argue here. There are definitely swords that cut better than other swords. But when it comes to cut skin and flesh every sword is an overkill. Although I have seen people being unable to break a pigs skin with a sword due to bad skill I still wouldn't have wanted to be on the receiving ends of these cuts, even when badly executed.

As I said before, in the end test cutting should reflect the techniques as close as possible. This is something you want to train where no one can see you and not in front of an audience. As you saw a mat lasts about a few seconds for me when cutting in front of the audience (I did the multiple cutting) but when privately cutting to test my techniques it lasts much longer.

Herbert

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Johan Gemvik

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Posts: 793 Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Wed 11 May, 2011 3:26 pm

Tristán Zukowski wrote:

Johan Gemvik wrote:

I find it intriguing that both your groups don't just step and cut but also cut from standstill with obvious hip genereated power. I though this was strictly off limits to HEMA in general, especially the longsword schools?

Well, I'd go with "well-debated" rather than "off limits." :) The fundamental issue is that one should be able to cut under any condition or circumstance, and not just within textbook-perfect parameters.

My sentiments exactly!
This is something I've been experimenting a lot with and I'm a strong supporter of the idea of using hip and being able to cut from both standstill and while moving around as well as the more obvious direct stepping in cuts. What if there's no space to step, what if the opponent bodily stops your step and so on, I don't find this just possible but even quite likely to happen in a real sword fight in close quarters in fortress or on a ship, or for field formation battle for that matter.

One thing I do is to step and cut, and then small step again with the left for follow up very quickly, flowing as one motion, then small step again for a third cut. The stepping is less to generate power than to simply unlock the body for the motions and letting the sword and hip do their work and the arm and upper body is relaxed and just guides where the blade is to go. I usually train this with multiple targets within close sword reach of each other. Then of course I also cut with no step, just hip.

Great to find such like minded in both you and Herbert. Probably it comes from having similar practical experiences from cutting dynamics. Sometimes when talking to purely non-cutter hema folk one finds less common ground and a lot more stiff thinking. Which of course has its' place as well, but it's not my cup of tea as a more of an experimental free thinker.

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