Now that I have my first complete 15th century suit of armor all together and "All" the kinks worked out of it. To where I have a great fit. And I can see some German influence in my kit, some Italian and Milanese pieces. It looks great and I am very happy with it at this point.
If you want to skim through this topic simply read the bolden words, those are what I want.
Alas... I am looking to start putting together my next suit of armor. I know for a fact that I want a perfect fit and I am willing to pay for it (I have spent over a year fine tuning my current armor. And I dont want to have to mess with the new suit at all) Of course I'll be putting this whole suit together over several years due to cost... But I want it all from from maker. I want the padding pre-attached to the inside of the whole suit. And it has to be Historically accurate as well as from one source; i.e. German, Italian, etc. and the helm has to be either an Armet or close Helm (which I know will also have significant dependency on where it is from. and the last of my order will have to fullfill some where in the 15thcentury, hopefully not too close to the 16th century
So.... if money didn't matter and they sky was the limit (Buying one piece of armor a year) What Armourer would you choose to buy from? Considering all the stipulations wanted.
I think Robert MacPherson is retired now, so I would go to Jeff Hedgecock. I think his work runs about $30k for top quality, spring steel harness.
Francois L'Archeveque
Here's the thing I noticed. You want pre attached padding, and historically accurate. Not the done thing I'm afraid. You only need padding if the armour doesn't fit properly. With a top armourer, you'll only need a little bit of padding in the helm.
For armourers your side of the pond, I'd recommend Jeff Wasson. He seems to really know what he's doing, and is particularly good at mid 15th century armour.
For armourers your side of the pond, I'd recommend Jeff Wasson. He seems to really know what he's doing, and is particularly good at mid 15th century armour.
Peter Fuller, if he's still making armour. And I'd get him to make a replica of Henry VIII's foot harness for the Field of the Cloth of Gold that was never used.
So.... if money didn't matter and they sky was the limit (Buying one piece of armor a year) What Armourer would you choose to buy from? Considering all the stipulations wanted.
1 - Corvette (I've found that the classic midlife crisis car is growing on me as I'm in midlife)
2 - Fuji SST 1.0 (2011 model)
3 - Fuji Altamira 1.0 (2011 model)
4 - Another Fuji Altamira 1.0 for grins
5 - SCAR rifle
6 - Some quality museum time in the whole UK, Ireland, Germany, Spain, France, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, the Czech Republic, Poland, Norway, Sweden, and Greece to learn more before I started making choices
6 - A wide and full assortment of proper plate full kit (so the soft bits too)
---Something German and Gothic from Francois L'Archevequ
---Something English from Mark Vickers
---I'd find somebody in Europe to do an Italian harness on the expedition
---Something Flemish or distinctly Burgundian from Jeff Hedgecock
7 - Some good mail for use in a variety of applications
8 - A nice brigandine or three for those times when the plate is just more than I want to do
9 - Mountain stages at the tour to watch and wind it all up, and to wind me down
That at least works as a start! ;)
1 - Corvette (I've found that the classic midlife crisis car is growing on me as I'm in midlife)
2 - Fuji SST 1.0 (2011 model)
3 - Fuji Altamira 1.0 (2011 model)
4 - Another Fuji Altamira 1.0 for grins
5 - SCAR rifle
6 - Some quality museum time in the whole UK, Ireland, Germany, Spain, France, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, the Czech Republic, Poland, Norway, Sweden, and Greece to learn more before I started making choices
6 - A wide and full assortment of proper plate full kit (so the soft bits too)
---Something German and Gothic from Francois L'Archevequ
---Something English from Mark Vickers
---I'd find somebody in Europe to do an Italian harness on the expedition
---Something Flemish or distinctly Burgundian from Jeff Hedgecock
7 - Some good mail for use in a variety of applications
8 - A nice brigandine or three for those times when the plate is just more than I want to do
9 - Mountain stages at the tour to watch and wind it all up, and to wind me down
That at least works as a start! ;)
Last edited by Joe Fults on Fri 06 May, 2011 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
Patrick Thaden would be my choice :) Last I heard hes slowly stepped down from armouring, and has been more focused on doing metal work for spiral staircases and such.
http://www.smithdesignmfg.com/Smith_Design_an...lcome.html
http://www.thadenarmory.com/
Id base my harness off of Tobias Capwell's first harness. There would be some differences, but it would overall look the same
Attachment: 44.67 KB
This is what I would want ;)
http://www.smithdesignmfg.com/Smith_Design_an...lcome.html
http://www.thadenarmory.com/
Id base my harness off of Tobias Capwell's first harness. There would be some differences, but it would overall look the same
Attachment: 44.67 KBThis is what I would want ;)
Let's throw these into the mix: Jiri Lucius, Stanlislav Prosek, Albert Collins.
Of course, there are others in a similar realm; my point is that one way of interpreting 'sky is the limit' is to fantasize about armourers with five-year wait times, or those who can afford to only take on the occasional project, are busy with museum repro pieces, and so on.
If we're talking about a real project, though, another is to go to very high quality, but still affordable armourers such as the three above ... but factor in the cost of some serious body casting - or even international plane flights - to fulfil your 'I want a perfect fit' stipulation.
At least that could get you Joe's wish to visit all the museums in Europe first, so you're really 'in the zone'! :)
Of course, there are others in a similar realm; my point is that one way of interpreting 'sky is the limit' is to fantasize about armourers with five-year wait times, or those who can afford to only take on the occasional project, are busy with museum repro pieces, and so on.
If we're talking about a real project, though, another is to go to very high quality, but still affordable armourers such as the three above ... but factor in the cost of some serious body casting - or even international plane flights - to fulfil your 'I want a perfect fit' stipulation.
At least that could get you Joe's wish to visit all the museums in Europe first, so you're really 'in the zone'! :)
Ugo Serrano, hands down. I've seen the Negroli inspired armour pieces he has done and they are amazing.
Zac,
I agree for the most part. It does not look like armour was lined with padding by the mid to late 15th, whereas there is perhaps evidence this was done with some leg armour into the 15th and before I am not aware if it was really done with arm and torso armour. That said I think it is debatable if under armour was or was not padded at all by 1450 to1500. Clearly not as heavily padded as armour from the 1st half of the 15th or before, and certainly less so than that will mail and stand alone armour but the argument that it was unpadded is fairly lightly supported with evidence. So if Chris wants to use some padding in his arming doublet I see no reason not to. There are a few Probate Inventories from England of the time show such a garment was in use with armour.
That said there are lined and padded breastplates from the late 17th, 18th century and early 19th century that could be some type of show of possible continuance but I doubt it myself. Some of the breastplates taken back to England from France after Napoleon's defeat have fairly thickly padded liners. One I worked on likely had more than half an inch, perhaps 5/8 an inch of padding. Since most 15th and 16th century breastplates and arm harnesses lack the liner holes along the edges I think it not likely for this era though. That said there is one leg harness from the later part of the 1st half of the 15th at the RA that may have liner holes as well as one in Paris's Army Museum.
I also think Jeff is an awesome armourer! Though there are some great people out there and listed here.
RPM
I agree for the most part. It does not look like armour was lined with padding by the mid to late 15th, whereas there is perhaps evidence this was done with some leg armour into the 15th and before I am not aware if it was really done with arm and torso armour. That said I think it is debatable if under armour was or was not padded at all by 1450 to1500. Clearly not as heavily padded as armour from the 1st half of the 15th or before, and certainly less so than that will mail and stand alone armour but the argument that it was unpadded is fairly lightly supported with evidence. So if Chris wants to use some padding in his arming doublet I see no reason not to. There are a few Probate Inventories from England of the time show such a garment was in use with armour.
That said there are lined and padded breastplates from the late 17th, 18th century and early 19th century that could be some type of show of possible continuance but I doubt it myself. Some of the breastplates taken back to England from France after Napoleon's defeat have fairly thickly padded liners. One I worked on likely had more than half an inch, perhaps 5/8 an inch of padding. Since most 15th and 16th century breastplates and arm harnesses lack the liner holes along the edges I think it not likely for this era though. That said there is one leg harness from the later part of the 1st half of the 15th at the RA that may have liner holes as well as one in Paris's Army Museum.
I also think Jeff is an awesome armourer! Though there are some great people out there and listed here.
RPM
Marek of ArmoryMarek.com
Speaking of Armory Marek, can anyone comment on their armor... I'm interested in his bascinets in particular...
Thanks
Cole
Thanks
Cole
For the OP's timeline - Per Lillelund Jensen in Sweden.
His attention to detail and encyclopedic knowledge of armour in that period is second to none, IMHO. Genuinely pleasant and modest fellow too.
http://www.olofsgillet.org/per/
His attention to detail and encyclopedic knowledge of armour in that period is second to none, IMHO. Genuinely pleasant and modest fellow too.
http://www.olofsgillet.org/per/
Nice link Kel, thanks!
Cole
Cole
| N Cioran wrote: |
| Speaking of Armory Marek, can anyone comment on their armor... I'm interested in his bascinets in particular...
Thanks Cole |
i ordered my breastplate and arms from him when wearing my arming doublet, when i recieved them half a year later the breastplate had to be reworked a bit to fit well(trimmed off some metal) but the waistline still is too large. the arms were way to big but in my excitement i took them home anyway instead of having him remake them to fit me.
It's good quality for the price however since he's rather cheap. for all my new pieces i'm more inclined to order them from roman carreshenko(sp?), here's his facebook page : [url]http://www.facebook.com/#!/photos.php?id=100001292234084[/url]
i thought that Armoury Marek uses only iron, and not steel for its armour
| Randall Moffett wrote: |
| Zac,
I agree for the most part. It does not look like armour was lined with padding by the mid to late 15th, whereas there is perhaps evidence this was done with some leg armour into the 15th and before I am not aware if it was really done with arm and torso armour. That said I think it is debatable if under armour was or was not padded at all by 1450 to1500. Clearly not as heavily padded as armour from the 1st half of the 15th or before, and certainly less so than that will mail and stand alone armour but the argument that it was unpadded is fairly lightly supported with evidence. So if Chris wants to use some padding in his arming doublet I see no reason not to. There are a few Probate Inventories from England of the time show such a garment was in use with armour. That said there are lined and padded breastplates from the late 17th, 18th century and early 19th century that could be some type of show of possible continuance but I doubt it myself. Some of the breastplates taken back to England from France after Napoleon's defeat have fairly thickly padded liners. One I worked on likely had more than half an inch, perhaps 5/8 an inch of padding. Since most 15th and 16th century breastplates and arm harnesses lack the liner holes along the edges I think it not likely for this era though. That said there is one leg harness from the later part of the 1st half of the 15th at the RA that may have liner holes as well as one in Paris's Army Museum. I also think Jeff is an awesome armourer! Though there are some great people out there and listed here. RPM |
I forgot to reply to this at the time, so at the risk of backtracking a bit:
While my original post was ambiguous, I meant to talk in particular about padding attached to the armour in particular. Depending on area and use we have definite evidence for padded arming garments until at least 1467 (my knowledge stops around there. It's very possible it goes on further.) While there are a few extant pieces of armour with possible padded linings of the period, I would not trust this as evidence, due to the huge amount of tampering done in the Victorian age. The fact that a couple of part harnesses have padding out of the many hundreds we have available makes me disinclined to believe it was done at all, let alone with any regularity. If we unearth more limb defences padded like this, or a treatise that mentions it as a possible practice then that's fine, I'm just suspicious of one off finds due to the amazing enthusiasm of victorian curators.
We could move this to a new topic if more could be said, but I think we're essentially in agreement, I just wanted to state my case clearer for the benefit of those currently planning harnesses.
| Craig Shackleton wrote: |
| Peter Fuller, if he's still making armour. And I'd get him to make a replica of Henry VIII's foot harness for the Field of the Cloth of Gold that was never used. |
Peter is pleased to accept commissions and at last communication, was not booked years out; merely months. He has a very early armet in queue for me this summer. I could not recommend a more pleasant fellow to work with, although I have met a number of superb armourers that are equally excellent fellows. Just keep in mind that premium craftsmanship requires adequate compensation. Excellent harness was never cheap and nor is it now.
| Zac Evans wrote: |
| Here's the thing I noticed. You want pre attached padding, and historically accurate. Not the done thing I'm afraid. You only need padding if the armour doesn't fit properly. With a top armourer, you'll only need a little bit of padding in the helm. |
Not entirely true... Depends on the type and period of the harness. Sallet and bevor both require lining based on period survivors. Many 15thC cuisses show evidence of provision for removable lining. The rest of the harness seems to be sufficiently supported by arming garments.
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