I have been studying late 14th century English effigies in preparation for reproducing my own harness. I understand that a haubergeon was worn under full plate at this time, but am unsure what exactly was worn under the leg harness. Many effigies that I have found clearly show maille guarding the backs of the knees and ankles, but I am unclear if they were wearing full maille chausses or patches of maille stitched to padded/gamboised chausses that only cover what the plate does not. If wearing full maille under plate, are there issues with the maille interfering with the articulations of the knees?

Hi Tim, AFAIK in the earlier parts of the 14th century, maille chausse were used in addition plate defences covering the front half of the leg. This arrangement was replaced as some stage towards the end of the century by, stand alone, plate defences. It might be helpful if you could post a pic or a link to some of the effigies you speak of.

Here's a couple examples of what I'm referring to. The first photo, c. 1390, is the effigy on which I'm basing my harness.

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Well to me Tim this just seems like a full plate leg harness, as I said above these replaced the earlier maille chausses whit plate re-enforcement towards the late 14th century.

That late in the 14thC, its likely mail patches at the inside of thigh, circumference of knee and ankle.

I would agree,as it seems like such overkill to have full maille under full plate but I haven't found any proof either way yet

It's sheer impossible to wear full mail chausses under full plate legs, as tight fitting as they are (and need to be).
As you say, it's a total overkill, not only protection wise but also in weight and movement restriction. But that's no hard proof, you're right.
Would be fun if someone tried this out and report his exprerience here! :D

if you look closely at the inside of the left knee on the effigy of the Edward (the one posted) you'll see what looks to be maile. one can't be sure, but thats what it looks like.
still, at this point i would think that it would be voiders as opposed to actual maile chauses. just my oppinion with little to no factual basis. :p

Yes, I know them. We have no direct evidence, but we know at least some interesting hints towards the use of voiders in this timeframe
For example,the "demi haubergeon" from the Visby Massgraves. It's literally a mailshirt which is belly free, going only down until the niples. It was most certainly worn under a coat of plates. It has already been discussed here:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...haubergeon

Mail legs seem to have been worn in the early 14th century with simply shaped half-greaves, though not likely with the highly shaped later greaves.

It wouldn't make sense to wear full mail chausses just to cover the back of the knee and the front of the ankle.
Even the inside/back of the thigh during this period seems to have bee covered by plate.

[ Linked Image ]

When I said "inside/back of thigh" I was refering to the fully enclosed cuissies, which seem to have been common at the turn of the 15th century.

David Teague wrote:

Jojo Zerach wrote: David Teague wrote: Jojo Zerach wrote: Mail legs seem to have been worn in the early 14th century with simply shaped half-greaves, though not likely with the highly shaped later greaves. It wouldn't make sense to wear full mail chausses just to cover the back of the knee and the front of the ankle. Even the inside/back of the thigh during this period seems to have bee covered by plate. If you look and the first two effigies posted by Tim, both have mail at the gap between the sabaton and the greaves That's what I said. I'm sorry. I'm confused. :\ The effigies posted by Tim are of the late 14th century "with the highly shaped later greaves" and the first clearly shows maille at the back of the leg (knee & thigh) and both more at the ankle. You said "Even the inside/back of the thigh during this period seems to have been covered by plate" I was just pointing out, no they did not as these show (along with a number of other late 14th century effigies) the use of maille in those areas. Cheers, David

I meant like 1390's-1400.
Full cuissies seem common on English effigies during this time, like the example I posted above.

David Teague wrote:

Jojo Zerach wrote: When I said "inside/back of thigh" I was refering to the fully enclosed cuissies, which seem to have been common at the turn of the 15th century. I just want to be sure we are on the same page, are you taking 1390 or 1490? 1390 has lots of maile covered back legs. Cheers, David

I'm not trying to say open cussies weren't common, although the closed cuissies seem to be depicted fairly deliberatly.
They first become in the apparent in the ~1390's. You can see lots on effigies and brasses, though this one is pretty typical.

[ Linked Image ]

David Teague wrote:

Jojo Zerach wrote: I meant like 1390's-1400. Full cuissies seem common on English effigies during this time, like the example I posted above. To my knowledge they were not full cuissies in use at that time but the 2D carving makes them appear so. A French late 14th century statue of St George (dig the backs of those legs). Cheers, David