The first kriegsmesser below is (or at least was) in the collection of the Historisches Museum Dresden. I think it is the only such weapon I've seen with a chappe rather than a "nagel". I have no information about the weapon but I can make some educated guesses based on other examples, including the second one shown below. Hermann Historica dates that weapon to ca. 1520 (south German).

So, I would guess that the Dresden example is south German ca. 1500-20, approximately 102 cm overall, with two grip scales attached by tubular non-ferrous rivets and covered with leather. No pommel, cap or plate. Tooled chappe of tubular type as used on swords of the period. Does anybody have any information to suggest that this interpretation is not correct?

The big question concerns the Dresden weapon's blade. The grip is approximately 1/4 the overall length of the weapon. That's a long grip, but even so the absence of a pommel suggests that this weapon would be unwieldy unless the blade is relatively thin. Any guesses about the thickness / section of the blade? I would guess that it's either a thin triangle its entire length OR a thicker triangle at the forte and gradually changing to a thinner and more lenticular section below the fuller. It might even have a symmetrical lenticular section and sharp false edge below the fuller. I just can't tell....I'm going to try to make something in this family, so related images and observations are most welcome. If any of you can visit the museum and actually view, photograph, sketch, or otherwise document this weapon (and also one of their katzbalgers) I'll be willing to pay you for your services. :D

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there was one like that second one with no pommel in the museum in Rothenburg ob der Tauber... when I visited in 06... I remember it was slab sided full lentgth tang which was as thick as the blade... it was in the section with tools for hunting... its been a few years but I think I remember it gradually narrowing towards the tip of the blade... http://www.reichsstadtmuseum.rothenburg.de/ here is the link to the museum

I knew I had seen messer #2 somewhere... check outh www.hermann-historica.com closed auction #56 lot #564... lots of nice pictures and description of that exact piece... also pics of the revese and magnification... you can also see that the shell was cross peened on to the guard throught the blade... also that the grip is leather covered wood...

This appears to be the same general type and period, so it's a clue to length, scabbard and suspension (looks like there's a by-knife as well).

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that looks more like a Schweitzersable or Hauschwert http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=112795 ... more of a curved blade... landsknecht woodcut I know of with a messer is the one of Kuntz von den Rosen... but you can only see the hilt http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons..._Rosen.jpg

Thanks for the clarification!

I just came back from a little research trip where I came across some messers (plus some *very* interesting swords :-). I learned a new things about messers: the rivets can be of wood!

*Many* messers of the longer kind had originally leather covered grips, hiding grip slabs, tang and rivets. They still classify as messers, even if you do not see an exposed tang or riveted grip slabs. Some lack a nagel and have rings. A 16th C feature. They can still be called messers.
And as has been pointed out in this thread: Pommel or cap is not always present.
On this trip I was showed a stunning messer in very god state of preservation, with a grip lacking pommel and the wood components held together with wood "rivets". Balance was incredibly agile and the overall weight low, despite having a long blade. This weapon made a big impression on me. Extremely elegant.

In the wood cut above, the landsknecht is armed with a messer. Perhaps you can also call it a hauschwert, just like you can call a long sword a war sword or great sword.

There are quite a few lang messer/krieg messer that have pronounced curve: that is a feature that does not decide type one way or the other: rather its hilt construction. In the wood cut I see nothing that does not feature on messer weapons from this period. Grip, guard, nagel, blade shape, scabbard, by knives(?), suspension method... everything fits the bill of a messer.

Some are perfectly straight and have a centered spead point, just like the one Sean asked about. This one in Dresden is one that I have been curious about for some time. It belonged to Heinrich der Fromme. The very same man who owned the outstanding sword discussed in this thread:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2618

I do not think it is unwieldy at all. Blades on these weapons can be very thin.

I did not make it to Dresden this time. There are several swords that I am very interested to study in this collection. This messer is high on my list...

Thanks, Peter! Funny that you mention the HdF sword. When I first saw this messer it immediately reminded me of that sword. Something about the chappe and proportions. Same workshop, maybe?

Similar none pommeled examples that I have seen upclose had longer handles to make up for the lack of balance and the blades were almost paper thin.

I neglected to update this for those of you interested in a similar project. First, you should know that the CS has extremely sturdy construction. :lol: I basically did a failure test of this hilt and that involved a chisel, hammer, grinder and locking pliers. The end of the tang is "U" shaped and the thicker threaded rod was welded to the bottom of that "U"--after installation of that odd cross. Can't get the cross off with the rod intact. My first thought was that I could just put the tang on the anvil and break off the rod with a few shots. No way. Forget any concerns about breaking that weld while cutting melons. I had to grind the rod to the thickness of the tang in order to remove the cross.

Well, then you have a very robust blade that turns out to be a poor choice for a messer due to the weight and distribution of same, but a reasonable choice for a shorter falchion. And, hey-presto, there's an early 15th c. English longsword pommel and cross sitting on my shelf waiting for an appropriate blade! So, this will be one of those interesting falchion variants with scent stopper pommels. There's one shown in the image below (Wat Tyler having a cold chop for lunch), and there's an extant German example of the same period (see "Records") but with narrower blade.

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