Do you think butted maille made of modern mild steel or historical wrought iron rivited maille is stronger?
I'm just curious since I found out Japanese maille was generally made of steel, and therefore usually butted, not rivited.
Or am I over-estimating the differance between mild steel and iron?

Most of butted mails are almost completely useless, blunt spears and stuff can penetrate it, it would be total waste of material in "period".

As for material, I read, here (myArmoury) that wrought iron is actually very good material for mail, it absorbs punishment well with deformations and stuff, instead of breaking at some point of links. Mild steel doesn't fare so well.

Anyway, probably many people'll start heated discussion over it very soon. ;)

In demos of arrows/weapons they always seem to use butted maile, and it never seems to do much good. I think historical maile would have had to have been stronger for it to be so popular, and to justify making such a time-consuming armour. I read the "Chainmaile unchained" feature on here, it was interesting.

I had heard on one website that Japanese maile was made of "tempered wire", though he didn't cite a source, this is just one of those topics where there is virtually no information online. I'm poorly educated as far as Japanese armour goes.

I have personaly received a blow from a blunt steel sword that glanced from my shield into my butted mail and plates misiurka helmet weared over a felt cap. I was dizzy for about 3 seconds but that was all. Without the helmet I think I would have spent at least a few days in hospital, so... from my personal experience, I don't think butted mail is completly useless.

Didn't japanese mail had more "overlap" of the wire, similar to key rings? So that ends of the wire not just meet each other but go further pass each other?

The most common threat in battle, even in Japanese ones, came from spears and arrows. Testing armour against sword cuts is a waste of time. Pretty much anything worn as armour can offer good resistance to a sword. Some of the Japanese weaves would work a little better than 4-in-1 if both used butted mail but none of the Japanese weaves are as effective as any of the riveted European examples.

Ask yourself what happened after European contact. How many Japanese developments were adopted by the Europeans for battle? How many European developments were adopted by the Japanese? Japanese military technology was retarded when compared to Europe or the Middle East. It is to be expected from a society that deliberately isolates itself.

Depends on the link size (inner diameter) and wire gauge of the butted mail.

Personally, I would recommend going with riveted if you can afford it. It's substantially more expensive than butted.

I can't, so I use 14 gauge 1/4" inner diameter butted mail. Nice and tough, but it's awfully heavy.

My statement was purely anecdotal just from what I've seen with my own eyes. Much of what I learned was based off of the typical equipment used by the rich Samurai class during the Late Muromachi to Edo periods. Also the close ups of the weave pattern seems very European looking to me although I'm basing this on preconceptions of "oriental" patterns of chain mail,

It would be interesting to find out if the armor you pictured was used by a common foot soldier or by an aristorcrat.


EDIT>>>>>>>>>

here's an interesting find in regards to Eric's last post:

Quote:

Traditional samurai armor used chain in its construction but the chain was not usually the majority of the defensive material used; the chain was just used in certain areas in conjunction with iron plates which made up the majority of the defensive material of traditional samurai armor. Japanese chain mail armor on the other hand consisted primarily of chain sewn to cloth (and sometimes leather) and was worn as a type of defensive clothing. The chain can be exposed or hidden between 2 layers of cloth. Some chain garments are very fancy, with brocade or colored cloth, heavy chain, and leather trim and some chain garments are basic and utilitarian, using plain coarse cloth and lighter chain. The chain in all armors seems to have been coated in black lacquer to protect it from rust as the Japanese environment is harsh and over 100 yrs later many such armors still have some or most of the black lacquer left intact. Small armored plates were attached to the chain armor in certain areas but the majority of the defensive material was the chain. In addition to square or rectangular iron plates, small hexagon armor plates or "kikko" would be attached to the chain or sewn to the fabric of the "kusari" garments; the kikko can be exposed or hidden between layers of cloth. Kikko can be made from iron or hardened leather and is often hidden in the collars of chain jackets or "kusari katabira" and was used in other various places as well. Japanese chain armor comes in various forms of clothing or garments including, jackets, vests, gauntlets and gloves, hoods, thigh and shin guards ,and socks. Kusari is the name for chain in Japanese and gusoku is the name for armor. "Kusari gusoku" is the Japanese name for a suit of chain armor with the individual pieces having their own names such as "kusari katabira" for chain jacket, "kusari zukin" for chain hood, "kusari tabi" for chain socks, "kusari kote" for chain gloves, "kusari haidate" for chain thigh guards, "kusari suneate" for chain shin guards etc. The type of pattern most often used in the construction of the chain is called a ...4 in 1...pattern or "namban-kusari", namban refers to foreigners or foreign influenced.

Like I said, I never said that it never existed, I just said I had never seen it. Also it seems I was correct about the weave pattern being European in style, as it was adopted from Europeans during the late Edo period after the Japanese had lots of exposure to European cultures. From these you could suggest that since it's a regular 4-1 weave and butted it would perform just like European 4-1 butted chain mail of the same diameter, Useless for pierces, possibly ok for slashing. [/b]

Greetings!
On the original question: I don't know if there is so great difference between the wrought iron and the mild steel. (Shame on me! :) ) Both of them contains low amount of coal, and the wrought iron has got a fibrous structure. The low amount of carbon means that these materials are soft and ductile. I would say that the riveted one is mouch stronger.
Mr. Zerach mentioned that Japanese mail was generally made of steel. The old method of wiremaking requires relatively soft materials, even during the process, the wire becomes mouch more hard, and occasionally, it even breaks. (And I think that this is the main reason for the low carbon in the material of the chainmails: the materials with low level of carbon become brittle mouch later.) So how did the japanese make their steel wire? Does anyone have somekind of idea, information or evidence?
(I have got a mail, made of 1,6 mm (14 or 16 gauges) spring steel, with 6mm (a bit less than 1/4" inner diameter) I always wanted to make test shoots at it... Any suggestions, how it should be done?)

That's interesting, I didn't know the Japenese ever used European chainmaile patterns.
I made a very small sheet of maile with a Japenese pattern, I found the concet more basic than European pattern, though actually putting it together was quite tricky for me.