myArmoury.com - Please help identify these two swords

Posts: 4 Location: US

Fri 07 May, 2010 9:29 am

Please help identify these two swords

Greetings everyone
I recently joined this forum to learn more about ancient eastern european and asian arms and armour. I am doing research for a museum and need help in identifying two bronze swords, presumably around 9-7th century BC, and a pair of bronze embossed greaves, same time period. One is a leaf-shaped shorter sword, about 21 inch, the other is a long sword about 35 inches and between 2 and 3 inches wide. The images are attached. Any suggestions will be highly appreciated. Maria [ [/img]

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Maria Z.

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Posts: 4 Location: US

Fri 07 May, 2010 9:42 am

Re: Please help identify these two swords

Here is the image of the greave. It didn't get attached to the previous message. Sorry!

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Tomas Mihalyi

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Posts: 21 Location: Slovakia

Fri 07 May, 2010 10:11 am

Re: Please help identify these two swords

Maria Z. wrote:

Greetings everyone
I recently joined this forum to learn more about ancient eastern european and asian arms and armour. I am doing research for a museum and need help in identifying two bronze swords, presumably around 9-7th century BC, and a pair of bronze embossed greaves, same time period. One is a leaf-shaped shorter sword, about 21 inch, the other is a long sword about 35 inches and between 2 and 3 inches wide. The images are attached. Any suggestions will be highly appreciated. Maria [ [/img]

Hi Maria, the first one seems to be an iron age sword usually used in mediterranian mostly Italy (Golaseca culture: 900 - 600 BC, probably Golaseca Ib), similar types were also used in latter times by Celts or even by greek hoplites (xiphos) however the length was different.

The other one is mystery to me. It looks quite long so it might be a younger sword then the first, but as you mentioned it is made out of bronze so it could be bronze age variant. The meander visible on the blade may reffer to the mediterrain region, the alphabet depicted in the middle part of the blade looks similar to the Iberian or Celtiberian tribes allthough im no expert in this area. I could give you more info if id had closer data about this sword like lenght for instance.

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Tomas Mihalyi

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Posts: 21 Location: Slovakia

Fri 07 May, 2010 10:14 am

the second sword could have also been used in the middle east but as it looks quite long i got quite confused about this one :)

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Tomas Mihalyi

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Posts: 21 Location: Slovakia

Fri 07 May, 2010 10:34 am

I found this piece... it is described as an ancient chinese sword of around 600BC - Ming and Quing Dynasties...

http://www.yunphoto.net/en/photobase/yp5314.html

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Jeroen Zuiderwijk

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Posts: 740 Location: Netherlands

Fri 07 May, 2010 12:01 pm

The first is a so-called Schalenknauf sword. These were common in most of mainland Europe, around 1300-1000BC:

http://1501bc.com/files/vollgriffschwerter_de...ate103.jpg

(image from "Die vollgriffschwerter der urnenfelderzeit aus Bayern" by Hermann Muller-Karpe)

The second one is a fake. It's based on the Chinese Warring States swords, but this one clearly is a fake (one of the many fakes that are currently on the market).

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Maria Z.

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Posts: 4 Location: US

Fri 07 May, 2010 12:43 pm

Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote:

The first is a so-called Schalenknauf sword. These were common in most of mainland Europe, around 1300-1000BC:

[url] http://1501bc.com/files/vollgriffschwerter_de...ate103.jpg [/url]

(image from "Die vollgriffschwerter der urnenfelderzeit aus Bayern" by Hermann Muller-Karpe)

The second one is a fake. It's based on the Chinese Warring States swords, but this one clearly is a fake (one of the many fakes that are currently on the market).

Thank you for this info. Do you happen to know where the Schalenknauf type swords originated?
The second sword could be a fake, but what is it that can be seen on this photo that it is a fake?
I really appreciate all the clues.

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Maria Z.

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Posts: 4 Location: US

Fri 07 May, 2010 12:45 pm

Re: Please help identify these two swords

Maria Z. wrote:

Here is the image of the greave. It didn't get attached to the previous message. Sorry!

Check the attached file for the image of the bronze greave.

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Tomas Mihalyi

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Posts: 21 Location: Slovakia

Sat 08 May, 2010 7:47 am

well as Jeroen wrote the Schalenknauf sword can be found in large part of bronze aged/Iron age central Europe, including north Italy. I think that it refers to so called Eastern Alp circle, mainly representing the area close to the Danube river. Its origin may be quite close to the evolution of so called anténé swords depicted on the picture Jeroen posted. I cant give any closer detail without deeper search in literature but i think there are lots of publications concerning this topic....

to summarize: Schalenknauf sword was widely used in mostly preceltic area of Bronze age/Iron Age Europe...

for transaltion the name Schalenknauf names a scale or button at the end of a handle...

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Tomas Mihalyi

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Posts: 21 Location: Slovakia

Sat 08 May, 2010 8:29 am

Re: Please help identify these two swords

Maria Z. wrote:

Here is the image of the greave. It didn't get attached to the previous message. Sorry!

Check the attached file for the image of the bronze greave.

this greave is probably a piece from southeastern Europe weaponry in bronze age, similar ones were found in eastern Ilyria (present Albania) or Thracian territory located mostly in rich graves of chieftains or warriors. Im not quite sure about their exact origin. It looks like a local imitation of greek greaves. Contacts between these areas is well documanted in material culture.

for a better view try this link: http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/armour4.htm , the greaves are located in CENTRAL EUROPE section.

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