My first question on this forum, but I guess i need to start somewhere.....

Most of the reproduction Scottish Basket-hilts on the market have a basket liner, and most other basket-hilts (mortuaries, continental basket-hilts, shianovas...) don't...

Is there any historical evidence of using basket liners in non-scottish swords ?

And on the opposite, is there any evidence of not using a liner in scottish basket-hilts ?

Just wondering...

Patrick

I think chronology is a key issue here. Mortuary swords and continental basket hilts significantly predate the 18th century baskets associated with the Scots. Some of those early weapons had relatively small, thick buff leather pads at the base of the grip, to protect the hand from thrusts, but I'm not aware of any full liners that early. If I remember correctly, Oakeshott said that the velvet-faced full basket liners are much later–mid 18th c. forward–and that the liners of the first half of the 18th century were leather half liners and then three-quarter liners of cloth over thin leather, with the liner material becoming thinner and softer (less useful) over time. On the other hand, I think there's contemporary pictorial evidence of a full liner on a nobleman's very fine basket hilt sword in a portrait of the late 17th c. That portrait is in Culloden: The Swords and the Sorrows, so maybe somebody will post that. Maybe somebody here is also sitting beside their copy of Oakeshott's A&A from Ren To Industrial Rev. book and can tell you exactly which materials were used when. Mac? ElJay?

Thanks Sean,

Here's a trickier follow up question :
Scottish Basket hilts seem to retain the front rings (i've seen them called "knuclebows") from earlier liner-less baskets, where I guess they were used for protecting the index finger when "fingering" the guard to increase control over the weapon... Is there any evidence of that technique used with scottish baskets ? A liner would prevent such a use of the rings, so why were they kept in the sword's design ?

I tend to think that swords being practical tools, function would come first in their design...

Cheers,

pat

Here's a relevant line from my review of an early Anglo-Scots Borders basket hilt sword by E.B. Ericksona and Angus Trim:

"While this hilt appears to accommodate fingering the ricasso, this practice is both clumsy and impractical. Erickson has written elsewhere that this mixed-message design is true to original early basket-hilts which, by the provision of guards below the cross, appear to encourage fingering the ricasso, but which also, by joining basket and cross just over the first knuckle of the wielder's index finger, prohibit the practice. I'm impressed that the replica retains this distinctive and historically accurate quirk".

You can read the full review here:
http://www.myArmoury.com/review_ebeat_bh.html

So, the short answer is that whether or not the liner prevents fingering the ricasso is moot because the design of many, if not most, basket prevents it. I don't know why the guards in question would have been retained for over three centuries if they were already obsolete by 1550. Just design tradition, perhaps. Logic and practicality don't always apply in human affairs. Maybe ElJay will shed more light on this subject for us.

Thanks Sean again for the enlightment !

It's always interesting to understand form and function...

pat

Hi Sean and Pat,
I think tradition is the answer for the retention of the forward guards on the Scottish (and some English) baskets. Something that's interesting about all this is the the earliest English baskets (which are assymetric) have ONE forward guard, and it's unusable because of the hilt construction. So from the beginning you have this odd construction detail. Now why this was done is a good question. The forward guard was used to anchor elements originating on the left side of the hilt, but they didn't have to do this: the elements could have been anchored to the cross, and then you wouldn't even need a forward guard!

As the hilts became symmetric, you find two forward guards, but you still can't put your finger over the cross.

Here's another observation: in the 1700s many English baskets lost their forward guards, and some had removeable guards, so you could go with the traditional look or not!

--ElJay