Posts: 154 Location: Australia
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 7:29 pm
Wearing longswords in the 16th century
Hi everyone
I know the topic of whether or not longswords were carried or worn during the 16th century, particularly without armour, has been raised before on threads such as this:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=15819
I thought I'd share some pictures of historical artwork, predominately from the 16th century, that I took in Vienna, Munich, Dresden and Berlin among other places.
It may not have been common, but longswords (and gross messers too) certainly were depicted 'at the hip' in the late 15th and first half of the 16th century. An interesting aspect is how narrow and delicate the belts and straps look compared to the often overly thick and over-engineered types some modern craftsman make.
Cheers
Bill
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Longsword, late 15th or early 16thC
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Longsword, 16thC
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Longsword, 16thC
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Longsword, 16thC
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Grosse messer, 16thC
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Gross messer and longsword, 16thC
Posts: 4,194 Location: Northern VA,USA
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 7:47 pm
Hey Bill,
Those are some great pics! Thanks for sharing!
I'm often puzzled at why people insist that the longsword was only used for sport by the 16th century, considering just how often you see it depicted in 16th century art, and given how many surviving examples of antiques there are from the 16th century.
Posts: 530
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 10:57 pm
Now that last picture is intriguing! I wonder why would someone want to carry both longsword and gross messer at same time?
Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 11:15 pm
Artis Aboltins wrote: |
Now that last picture is intriguing! I wonder why would someone want to carry both longsword and gross messer at same time? |
Maybe because the " someone " is " NOT " wearing both. ;) Looks to me like the messer is on a belt on a background figure and the longsword is on the foreground figure: It just looks confusing as at first glance I also initially interpreted the picture as one guy wearing both swords. :surprised: ;) :cool:
Posts: 2,307 Location: Croatia
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 3:29 am
Cool pictures. Does anyone have a picture of an antique longsword from 15th or 16th century as broad and with as spatulate tip like from the first picture? Without it being rehilted old XIIIa. This one looks like it has no fuller, maybe flattened diamond?
Posts: 570 Location: Gothenburg/Sweden
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 4:14 am
One or two of the images does not show swords which IMHO looks like longswords. The image of the landsknecht in brown and yellow clothing shows a standard katzbalger of the longer type which frequently appears in the drawings of Paul Dolnstein for example. The image below that one is a bit odd as the blade is rather short but with a long grip.
I don't think there is any doubt that the longsword saw extensive use in the first 30 odd years of the 16th Century, Swiss troops are commonly shown wear longswords as sidearms and longswords appear in use by mounted troops as well. But sometime in the 1530's, perhaps early 1540's the use of the longsword in war seems to decline fairly rapidly judging by the sources.
Posts: 254 Location: Lubbock, TX
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 5:54 am
Bill,
Those are great images. Where did you find them?
Greg Coffman
Posts: 45 Location: Cologne, Germany
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 6:03 am
Artis Aboltins wrote: |
Now that last picture is intriguing! I wonder why would someone want to carry both longsword and gross messer at same time? |
... the person with the Messer is holding a "flagella", not a sword...
Regards
Martin
Posts: 4,194 Location: Northern VA,USA
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 6:35 am
Luka Borscak wrote: |
Cool pictures. Does anyone have a picture of an antique longsword from 15th or 16th century as broad and with as spatulate tip like from the first picture? Without it being rehilted old XIIIa. This one looks like it has no fuller, maybe flattened diamond? |
I suspect it may be an executioner's sword, such as this one:
[ Linked Image ]
Posts: 1,435 Location: California, Maryland, USA
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 6:01 pm
Given the amount of room needed to use a longsword, I can't imagine them being very common infantry weapons; you'd be limited to attacks from above and thrusts, and there are bound to be cheaper weapons that do that.
M.
Posts: 154 Location: Australia
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 9:10 pm
Daniel Staberg wrote: |
One or two of the images does not show swords which IMHO looks like longswords. The image of the landsknecht in brown and yellow clothing shows a standard katzbalger of the longer type which frequently appears in the drawings of Paul Dolnstein for example. |
Hi Daniel,
You could be right, although there were longswords with katzbalger style S-guard hilts and fairly short blades produced as well. The hilt appears a little too long for a one-handed katzbalger IMO.
Quote: |
The image below that one is a bit odd as the blade is rather short but with a long grip. |
It defintately looks like a longsword. A long hilt to blade ratio is not unusal in surviving longswords. Throughout Central Europe I saw quite a few longswords (some of which, unfortunately, I wasn't able to photograph due to museum restrictions on photography in places like Graz and Krakow) with very long hilts relative to the length of their blades. In the enclosed image below, you can see 6 such longswords with a long hilt to blade ratio.
[ Linked Image ]
Quote: |
I don't think there is any doubt that the longsword saw extensive use in the first 30 odd years of the 16th Century, Swiss troops are commonly shown wear longswords as sidearms and longswords appear in use by mounted troops as well. But sometime in the 1530's, perhaps early 1540's the use of the longsword in war seems to decline fairly rapidly judging by the sources. |
The interesting thing is the carriage of the longsword, at the hip, even by unarmoured people (i.e. in 'civvies'). Part of what prompted me to post these images is the assertion the longsword was not used at all in earnest in the 16th century, nor was it ever carried in civilian contexts. I think these images challenge those assertions.
Greg Coffman wrote: |
Bill,
Those are great images. Where did you find them? |
Hi Greg,
The artwork (and swords) are my own photographs from various kunsthistorisches (historical art) museums and armouries respectively. I'm still sorting out my photos, and when I finally do, I want to put up some albums of all the drool-worthy arms and armour I was lucky enough to see.
Cheers
Bill
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L-R: 1&2) Istanbul (Askeri Muzesi)
3) Vienna (Schatzkammer)
4) Munich (Bayerisches Nationalmuseum)
5&6) Dresden (Rüstkammer) [ Download ]
Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 9:39 pm
Martin Fischer wrote: |
Artis Aboltins wrote: | Now that last picture is intriguing! I wonder why would someone want to carry both longsword and gross messer at same time? |
... the person with the Messer is holding a "flagella", not a sword...
Regards
Martin |
Yes, but it's not what they are holding it's the swords or messers belted at their waists, at least my comments are about the swords. :D :cool:
Posts: 254 Location: Lubbock, TX
Sun 21 Feb, 2010 9:25 am
Quote: |
I'm still sorting out my photos, and when I finally do, I want to put up some albums of all the drool-worthy arms and armour I was lucky enough to see.
|
Please do! Those are excellent photos of excellent paintings.
Greg C
Posts: 87 Location: Holland
Sun 21 Feb, 2010 11:12 am
Luka Borscak wrote: |
Cool pictures. Does anyone have a picture of an antique longsword from 15th or 16th century as broad and with as spatulate tip like from the first picture? Without it being rehilted old XIIIa. This one looks like it has no fuller, maybe flattened diamond? |
Hi,
herewith a 16thC 2 hander and 1 1/2 hander between 2 old XIIIa's :cool: . the 2 hander is of a flat diamond shaped blade
and the 11/2H of lenticular shape.
regards
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Posts: 98 Location: Providence
Mon 22 Feb, 2010 10:44 am
Based on what evidence we have, I think everyone can agree that people did use longswords throughout the sixteenth century. In the thread you linked to, the issues raised there regarded time and place.
The artworks in this thread, as you noted, are from the early part of the sixteenth century and look to be predominantly German. Fashion and choices made vary per region, country, decade, etc., so we must not draw sweeping conclusions. The gentleman in the last thread indicated through his designs and desires that he was aiming for a late sixteenth century outfit, and the sort of images in this thread don't really apply.
Also consider the intent of the artworks you posted here. Are they depictions of real events? Or are they scenes from distant places or the Holy Land? Are they allegorical? Every little piece of any artwork is a construction; the artist makes visual choices that determine and/or influence what the viewer sees. In the case of many Medieval/Renaissance artworks (and well on into the 20th century), artists that had never left their homeland, let alone seen a foreign traveler, were on occasion tasked with depicting the exotic, and so many of these artworks are for a good part imagined or skewed. Cross-reference everything to create the clearest picture of the past.
I'm curious now as to the development of pike tactics. I'm familiar with those from the latter half of the sixteenth century on into the early seventeenth. We have many images of Swiss Reislaufer with longswords and pike, but as you get farther along, people start advocating the use of short swords or daggers in a pike formation. The Katzbalger might usually be rather short, and Sir John Smythe, in one of his books suggested daggers with small hilts for use in a pike block. In the seventeenth century, men might have short blades or hangers. I've read a few accounts about problems at musters where men have excessively long rapiers that just won't do. So what changed?
-Dan[/u]
Posts: 2,307 Location: Croatia
Mon 22 Feb, 2010 2:23 pm
Cornelis Tromp wrote: |
Luka Borscak wrote: | Cool pictures. Does anyone have a picture of an antique longsword from 15th or 16th century as broad and with as spatulate tip like from the first picture? Without it being rehilted old XIIIa. This one looks like it has no fuller, maybe flattened diamond? |
Hi,
herewith a 16thC 2 hander and 1 1/2 hander between 2 old XIIIa's :cool: . the 2 hander is of a flat diamond shaped blade
and the 11/2H of lenticular shape.
regards |
Wow, impressive sword. The other one is nice too, reminds me of A&A Bohemian.
Posts: 254 Location: Lubbock, TX
Mon 22 Feb, 2010 9:49 pm
Dan Rosen wrote: |
In the case of many Medieval/Renaissance artworks (and well on into the 20th century), artists that had never left their homeland, let alone seen a foreign traveler, were on occasion tasked with depicting the exotic, and so many of these artworks are for a good part imagined or skewed. |
I think people were traveling a lot more at this time. And then we have plenty of soldier-artists who "saw the world" in the army and then drew what they saw. Albrecht Durer and Urs Graf fall into this category.
Quote: |
I'm curious now as to the development of pike tactics... |
That sounds like a topic for a whole other discussion!
Quote: |
The artworks in this thread, as you noted, are from the early part of the sixteenth century and look to be predominantly German...The gentleman in the last thread indicated through his designs and desires that he was aiming for a late sixteenth century outfit, and the sort of images in this thread don't really apply. |
Yes but these do!
Bad photo, but the longsword on the hip of the left-most figure is visible as are the longswords worn by the two armoured figures.
Another Longsword.
And two more longswords. Notice that the clothing matches pretty well what Meyer has depicted in 1570. So the weapons taught inside the fecht schules were carried outside the fecht schules.
Posts: 154 Location: Australia
Thu 25 Feb, 2010 4:31 am
Thanks Greg! Those are really interesting images. Where are these from (so I know where to go next time I'm in Europe!)?
Cheers
Bill
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