Where are all of the simple-hilt "rapiers" of the type shown in Saviolo and DiGrassi? They must have been common, but I can't find surviving examples anywhere (and I haven't seen any in painting of the period). Were they re-hilted as the fashion changed? I assume there are some in Italian museum collections, but I haven't found any Italian collections online. Any help is appreciated. One of the men below has two. I just want one. :D

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You mean these? There are enough of those around, honestly. I got those here from herman historica.

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Nope. Even simpler than those. Just a horizontally re-curved cross and globular pommel.

Fingering the quillon without a complex guard, as shown in the latter two pictures, is a good way to lose a finger.

I suspect they were shown that way to show hand position more clearly.

Or maybe it was a cost saving measure, just to make the etchings easier and less expensive. Printing an illustrated book must not have been cheap. Both Mair and Meyer got into financial difficulties as a result of their books.

I've been looking too, with little success.

I know a sword (not necessarily a rapier) with a turned-down hilt and spherical pommel was found in an encrustation aboard the Mary Rose (1545); as was an early basket hilt. So such swords were found in England in the mid-sixteenth century.

There are also swords that match this type to be seen (if you look really, really closely) in the engravings from Cowdrey house.

It's possible that the well-known image of George Silver (demonstrating the correct length for a sword) is holding such a rapier (this time with a fore guard)

However, to date I've yet to find a real example of such a sword.

I was just lamenting this the other day: swords of the first quarter 16th century seem to be largely ignored by the community.

EDIT:

Some images from the MR, taken yesterday:

The most precisely-dated basket hilt sword (can be dated to exactly 19th July 1545!):


The 'impression' of a simple rapier (the iron remnants disintegrated as they tried to recover it):


A curved-hilted sword discovered when X-raying an excrustation. You can just about make up the 'ghost' of a sword in the image. (sorry about the poor quality - my wife took the photo and was actually focussing on the scabbard in the case not the images in the background!)

Maybe I'll just make one and see what happens. :lol:

Hmm, this one's close, I suppose. It was dug out in Germany .

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That's not it, either, but it is VERY interesting, Werner! Is it from Hermann Historica, too? Details!

Already shared this with you in PM and it's an "almost". Let's put it here for others to see, too.


[ Linked Image ][ Linked Image ]

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/1652.html
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/1650.html
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/1651.html

It's the closest thing I've seen to what's illustrated in those documents, though this one has a flattened pommel and some illustrated examples appear to have massive globular pommels.

Ah, I see that the German sword is from Hermann Historica:

Lot Nr.3671

A German sword,

circa 1600. Double-edged blade with a somewhat shortened point, and fullered for half its length on both sides. Iron hilt with two ring guards and S-shaped quillons. The bent tang with vase-shaped pommel and remains of the original wooden grip. Well preserved archaeological find with heavy traces of corrosion at the point. Length 109 cm [42.9"].

Looks to me like the grip core is spirally carved for a wire wrap. Very interesting....

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That little sword is ca. 1500, but it's a distinctly Italian type and certainly might be an ancestor of the later 16th type I'm looking for.

After having been lately reprimanded by Nathan :D , I hesitate to mention this, Sean. It's not exactly what you are looking for but, again, close I think. Look on a certain ubitquitous website that allows people to bid on things, sort under Militaria and highest first. There is a new listing for a fairly simple rapier on the first page that pops-up. Nice decorations but fairly straightforward geometry.