Hello there

Ok this may or may not have been true. But somewhere I heard that Pommels of sowrds were sometimes used as small make shift maces or clubs. Is this tru or pure make believe?
If it is true I know a few swords I have would fair well if need came to hit or whack (like your pounding your fist on a table) a person if you couldnt get a clean swing in.
But what I want to know I guess is if they did serve as such on a rare occasion why not have a very small stud or spike to incapasitate your opponent or kill them easily.?
Sorry I cant say this more clearly but I think you get my idea of this.
And ideas or suggestions on if the did this and why they didnt make pommels a bit more deadly
Thanks
Christopher

I also believe the term 'pummel' comes from the practice of smashing someone in the face with your sword's pommel.

I know this isn't exactly what you were asking, but I feel it is important to point out that the Gladiatoria fechtbucher also instruct you to unscrew your pommel and throw it at your opponent, if you want to finish the fight quickly.

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I am, as always, no expert, but I would imagine that our ancesters chose not to put spikes and such on pommels for two major reasons:

1. So as not to injure the wielder. While it is debated whether or not one should grip the pommel for some strikes (I do it all the time with my hand-and-a-half), there is a good chance that the pommel will come in contact with some portion of your body in a fight. It is the end closest to you after all. This is completely ignoring any possible injury due to just carrying it around.

2. The use of the pommel is intended as a last ditch effort to pummel someone who is too heavily armored for the blade. Not sure that a spike on a relatively small pommel (it is no mace or warhammer) will do much of anything.

I have to respectfully disagree. While I do think it seems like you'd risk hurting yourself with a sharpened pummel or quillons, I know that these things are illustrated in Talhoffer 1459, Vadi, and Gladiatoria, just off the top of my head. I don't know of any surviving examples, and my bet is that it was only done for ritual combat where either your armour would protect you from damaging yourself, or the chance of hurting yourself was part of the intentional design of the weapon. That's just speculation of course, but the frequency and diversity of the source information for sharpened or spiked pommels makes me believe they were real.

Good points Hugh, so to speak, regarding the cross. My rapier roots come out sometimes, and no, I don't know offhand of any techniques specifically using the cross to attack, and you have far more knowledge of attacks with the pommel than I do. I do have a vague recollection of seeing someone getting injured by a pointed cross during a throw technique somewhere in Talhoffer, but I could be misremembering, and I'm pretty sure it was just a secondary effect of the throw, and possibly just an opportunity to show some blood!

However, Vadi specifies in his description of the sword to be used in armour that "the hilt should be as long as the handle, and it should be pointed on each side; and in the same way the pommel should be pointed, so that it is possible to strike with each of these parts." (translation Luca Porzio & Gregory Mele).

Talhoffer of course shows all kinds of pointed weapons, and I understand your point about the military engineering, since he also shows underwater breathing apparatus and all kinds of weird things, but the pointy swords he show being used, which is the real difference for me. I categorize these swords with the crazy dueling shields we also see in multiple sources, and which Talhoffer also illustrates in his military engineering, and which I also gather we have no surviving physical examples. I believe that they were rare, and mostly used for judicial trials or some other formalized ritual combat.

If I find a specific attack with the cross, I'll come back and post it. But for now, I'll accept that there is no specific technique shown for that.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss all of the various instruments and machines found in Talhoffer's Thott manuscript. That whole section is a copy of the famous Bellafortis manual on siege warfare. It was considered one of the most important sources on siege weaponry and tactics. It also included recipes for various types of gunpowder and rockets. Many of those odd machines were certainly built and used in siege warfare. I've even heard that the leather diving suit was recently reconstructed and it was able to be submerged and receive air. (If anyone has more info about this let me know!)

Anyhow, I think it is a little short sighted to simply dismiss a whole section of a manuscript or certain aspects of what is presented by the author because it seems too silly or implausible to our minds. I'm sure there were some who initially rejected the idea of grabbing a sharp blade, even though it is found all over the various manuals. But now we know that many people have tested this and arrived at the conclusion that a sharp blade can be safely held in bare hands. So maybe we should put these various machines and odd weapon designs to the test before dismissing them as Talhoffer's grandiose pipe dream.

Well for spikes Im not talking about long spikes Im talking more like a good stud or point on the end of the pommel where the blade would be peened over. Just enough length to be used with a good downward blow if need be.
I can also see the use of the hilt or gaurd being used as a make shift weapon as well. Kinda like a knuckle duster or brass knuckle what ever you want to call them.

But yes doing some winter cutting brought this whole idea of using the hilt and pommel as a close quarter weapon in its own right. I know the cross hilt wouldnt need to be sharp at th edges at all to cause considerable damamge to armor or to a lightly armored man.

But yes thanks for all the info so far

Christopher

Cool, thanks for the extra info It is useful to know.