Posts: 356 Location: Roanoke, Virginia
Sun 07 Feb, 2010 1:20 pm
Scottish Portraits with Arms
Posts: 356 Location: Roanoke, Virginia
Sun 07 Feb, 2010 1:23 pm
Below is Virginia Governor Lord Dunmore. At first I thought his dirk hilt was of carved wood, but on closer examination, it appears the dirk, knife and fork are all hilted in antler.
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Posts: 356 Location: Roanoke, Virginia
Sun 07 Feb, 2010 1:28 pm
And no collection of Scottish portraits would be complete without Lord George Murray!
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Posts: 1,241 Location: NC
Sun 07 Feb, 2010 1:30 pm
Thanks for sharing Chris. I have seen Major Fraser, Lord Dunsmore and Lord George many times before, but the other two were new to me.
Wearing a pistol on the waistbelt was apparently common, when pistols were kept for serious work. I have seen several old portraits with one at the waist and the other clipped to a cross belt which was apparently made for the purpose of carrying a pistol
Posts: 356 Location: Roanoke, Virginia
Sun 07 Feb, 2010 1:48 pm
Lin,
Yes, much of the artwork I have seen of Highland soldiers shows the pistol worn on a crossbelt that runs parallel to the baldrick holding their sword. I was interested to find a painting of the pistol worn on a waist belt instead. In the paintings you have seen this in before, were the men wearing kilts, or were they in trews like this individual? That would be interesting to know.
One of the things that has been curious to me as well is what's absent from certain paintings. For example, the man in the painting referenced above is not wearing a dirk. Similarly, Lord George Murray is not wearing a sporran. These things seem so ubiquitous on the whole that I find it interesting when they are "missing".
Chris
Posts: 1,241 Location: NC
Sun 07 Feb, 2010 1:55 pm
| Chris Goerner wrote: |
Lin,
Yes, much of the artwork I have seen of Highland soldiers shows the pistol worn on a crossbelt that runs parallel to the baldrick holding their sword. I was interested to find a painting of the pistol worn on a waist belt instead. In the paintings you have seen this in before, were the men wearing kilts, or were they in trews like this individual? That would be interesting to know.
One of the things that has been curious to me as well is what's absent from certain paintings. For example, the man in the painting referenced above is not wearing a dirk. Similarly, Lord George Murray is not wearing a sporran. These things seem so ubiquitous on the whole that I find it interesting when they are "missing".
Chris |
The paintings I have seen were all kilted. When I read your post I started looking for one good example but have not found it. And, since the Super Bowl is starting shortly, it may have to wait.
I agree that no dirk and no sporran are a bit unusual. We do need to allow for artistic license also; after all these are not photographs.
Posts: 630 Location: Tucson
Sun 07 Feb, 2010 1:59 pm
don't forget this one Sir Mungo Murray
Last edited by Thom R. on Sun 07 Feb, 2010 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 1,241 Location: NC
Sun 07 Feb, 2010 1:59 pm
Here is one with the pistol on the belt. This is Kenneth Sutherland, the 3rd Lord Duffus.
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Posts: 630 Location: Tucson
Sun 07 Feb, 2010 2:09 pm
Alastair Grant with his claidheam crom
Last edited by Thom R. on Sun 07 Feb, 2010 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 630 Location: Tucson
Sun 07 Feb, 2010 2:14 pm
Major Alexander Tulloch of Dunbennan
Posts: 630 Location: Tucson
Sun 07 Feb, 2010 2:29 pm
next two are from the cover of
Sons of the Mountains, not clear who the gentlemen are:
Posts: 630 Location: Tucson
Sun 07 Feb, 2010 2:44 pm
Posts: 630 Location: Tucson
Sun 07 Feb, 2010 2:52 pm
this one is from a bit later - 1822 Major General Sir Evan MacGregor
note the traditional pistols however
Posts: 1,241 Location: NC
Sun 07 Feb, 2010 2:54 pm
| Thom R. wrote: |
next two are from the cover of Sons of the Mountains, not clear who the gentlemen are:
|
The chap with the musket is John Campbell of Melfort. I do not know who the other fellow is.
Posts: 818 Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA
Mon 08 Feb, 2010 4:40 am
| Thom R. wrote: |
| Alastair Grant with his claidheam crom |
That is a very interesting looking blade. It looks like some kind of falchion or even messer mated to a baskethilt. That or I could not be totally awake as of yet.
Scott
Posts: 1,241 Location: NC
Mon 08 Feb, 2010 4:56 am
| Scott Kowalski wrote: |
| Thom R. wrote: | | Alastair Grant with his claidheam crom |
That is a very interesting looking blade. It looks like some kind of falchion or even messer mated to a baskethilt. That or I could not be totally awake as of yet.
Scott |
It is a saber blade. There are a couple of examples of basket hilts with saber blades, so this is not just artistic license.
Posts: 818 Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA
Mon 08 Feb, 2010 5:19 am
| Lin Robinson wrote: |
| Scott Kowalski wrote: | | Thom R. wrote: | | Alastair Grant with his claidheam crom |
That is a very interesting looking blade. It looks like some kind of falchion or even messer mated to a baskethilt. That or I could not be totally awake as of yet.
Scott |
It is a saber blade. There are a couple of examples of basket hilts with saber blades, so this is not just artistic license. |
NOOOOOOOOOOOO! That was my wallet by the way. It does not like you much right now Lin. Mainly due to the fact that this has given me the idea for yet another sword I would like to someday have. Maybe in FY 2012.
Joking aside Lin, thank you very much for the response. I do not suppose anyone has a better picture of just the sword from the picture do they? The one posted is dark when you get to the tip which I would like to see better since it looks clip pointed to me.
Scott
Posts: 630 Location: Tucson
Mon 08 Feb, 2010 7:29 am
There is a beautiful baskethilted saber in Culloden the Swords and the Sorrows which you should check out - Vince Evans once did a repro and I think you can still see it in his public photo album. The Swords and the Sorrows is out of print but copies exist for about 60 bucks which is still quite a good deal if you like scottish baskets! unfortunately we used to have all manner of photos of baskets here in Mac's posts but then his photo album links went into the internet ether. tr
Posts: 356 Location: Roanoke, Virginia
Mon 08 Feb, 2010 8:59 am
| Henrik Bjoern Boegh wrote: |
| Chris Goerner wrote: | | Below is Virginia Governor Lord Dunmore. At first I thought his dirk hilt was of carved wood, but on closer examination, it appears the dirk, knife and fork are all hilted in antler. |
What makes you say that? When I zoom in on it it looks much like the handles are both carved. To me it appears that there is knotwork on is as well. The dirk also has the typical wide pommel, thin grip and wider haunches form, which seem an unlikely form if made by antler.
Who is the lad in the portrait above (with trews and a laaarge plaid hanging behind him, and the unusual cloth bonnet)
Here are a few more portraits.
Cheers,
Henrik |
Henrik,
I can't be certain they are antler. However, when I zoom in on the hilt, the pommel looks more like an antler crown than turned wood. Also, the knife and fork appear to have similarly shaped pommels (ie, hilts look like they flare at the top rather than being cylindrical in shape.
It could certainly be my eyes playing tricks on me, as I can only get so much resolution out of the copy of the painting I have. And, as Lin noted earlier, these are paintings and not photographs. What I am interpreting as crown stag may simply be the artist's technique at representing celtic knotwork with his paints.
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