myArmoury.com - Best Scottish Pistol Reproduction?

Posts: 386 Location: Agder, Norway

Fri 29 Jan, 2010 5:44 am

David Wilson wrote:

Whoa, good find, Henrik. The disclaimer at Middlesex states that they'd never seen a "real" Scots pistol that wasn't profusely engraved (there are certainly some doglock pistols that lack engraving). In the new Fergus Canan (sp?) book Scottish Arms and Armour, there is a very similar flintlock pistol, with some minor differences -- the trigger and pricker heads are acorn-shaped and faceted, and the barrel is engraved. It has no maker's mark of any kind. Otherwise it is almost identical to the "Indian" and this pistol illustrated here. (No, I don't have pics)

Many of the Aberdonian or North Eastern Scottish pistols with the heart shaped butts are without engravings, and then there are all the military ones. In Weapons of the Highland Regiments 1740-1780 by Anthony D. Darling there are four or five different types shown.

Cheers,
Henrik

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Lin Robinson

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Posts: 1,241 Location: NC

Fri 29 Jan, 2010 9:59 am

John Waller wrote:

I bought one of these in kit form about 20 years ago after reading that it just required basic skills to put it together. I'm afraid the 'basic' skills were beyond mine. The kit was for a non-firer as a large section on the underside of the barrel had been cut away. I gave it to a friend who is a helicopter engineer who said he could build it for me. Never seen it since! Must find out what happened to it.

This particular kit, built by my friend, was complete and, as I mentioned earlier, I have fired it. The sensation of firing one of these things (I have also fired my replica Waters pistol on several occasions), is singular. The pistol is not easily controlled with anything more than a squib load, is inherently inaccurate, and not much fun to shoot. As a handgun, they make dandy bludgeons! I would say that in order to hit your target you must be at extremely close range. I laugh every time I see Liam Neeson bring down the dragoon in "Rob Roy" with his pistol. The soldier must have been 20 yards or more away. That would have to have been a very lucky shot!

I added a photo of me, shooting my Waters pistol about three years ago. The recoil is not exaggerated. I had to keep a tight grip to prevent it from shifting in my hand.

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Luke Zechman

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Posts: 278 Location: Lock Haven Pennsylvania

Mon 01 Feb, 2010 3:13 pm

Here is a picture I took this weekend at the Phila. Museum of Art. I saw them and thought of this thread instantly. I figured it would be nice to have a picture of some originals in the thread for comparison. Enjoy!

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Lin Robinson

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Posts: 1,241 Location: NC

Mon 01 Feb, 2010 5:12 pm

Luke Zechman wrote:

Here is a picture I took this weekend at the Phila. Museum of Art. I saw them and thought of this thread instantly. I figured it would be nice to have a picture of some originals in the thread for comparison. Enjoy!

Thanks for posting those Luke. You are right about the idea of comparison.

Those are what are referred to as "costume pistols". They were manufactured during Victorian times for wear with full Highland dress. They could be fired but I doubt that many ever were. They retain some of the characteristics of the old Highland "dag" but the finesse and architecture are not there. Even so, those pistols today bring a tidy sum when offered at an antique auction.

Donnie Shearer owns or owned a similar pistol that had been outfitted for actual use. It was much more formidable than the average costume pistol.

Thanks again.

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Luke Zechman

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Posts: 278 Location: Lock Haven Pennsylvania

Mon 01 Feb, 2010 8:09 pm

Lin,
Thanks for the information. I am not at all versed in Scottish arms. I had one hour to photograph as much as I could, before the museum would close. I didn't have any time to read the cards, and for this I am regretful. These two looked to be in very good condition, and i would not doubt if they had ever been fired. Thanks again.

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Lin Robinson

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Posts: 1,241 Location: NC

Tue 02 Feb, 2010 3:38 am

Luke Zechman wrote:

Lin,
Thanks for the information. I am not at all versed in Scottish arms. I had one hour to photograph as much as I could, before the museum would close. I didn't have any time to read the cards, and for this I am regretful. These two looked to be in very good condition, and i would not doubt if they had ever been fired. Thanks again.

Luke...

I appreciate your taking the time to photograph and post them. That was a very good photo to have been shot through glass.

I doubt the card refers to them as costume pistols. It probably gave the dates of manufacture and the fact they were Scottish pistols. The older style pistols were made until near the end of the 18th c., after which time the "Tartan Craze" took over and pistols like these were produced. As I said above, these pistols come on the market frequently and bring very good prices at antique auctions. They have their place in history.

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Lin Robinson

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Posts: 1,241 Location: NC

Sun 07 Feb, 2010 11:27 am

David Wilson wrote:

Whoa, good find, Henrik. The disclaimer at Middlesex states that they'd never seen a "real" Scots pistol that wasn't profusely engraved (there are certainly some doglock pistols that lack engraving). In the new Fergus Canan (sp?) book Scottish Arms and Armour, there is a very similar flintlock pistol, with some minor differences -- the trigger and pricker heads are acorn-shaped and faceted, and the barrel is engraved. It has no maker's mark of any kind. Otherwise it is almost identical to the "Indian" and this pistol illustrated here. (No, I don't have pics)

I doubt that this one, and the one in the Canan book, are actually Scots, most likely mass-produced in Birmingham or other English gun-making center....

I actually have two of these attractive toys, one plain and the other engraved (although, not in a pattern that resembles anything the Scots would have done....). I've always been suspect as to quality -- they are fairly rough, and the fact that there are no proof marks has always given me pause. Needless to say, I don't plan on live-firing them (maybe "blank" charges, no ball...).

David....

I have looked and re-looked at the photos from Henrik and the photos in the Canan book. I think the pistol in the Canan book is a Scottish civilian piece. The caption indicates it was made some time in the late 1700s. By that time most of the Scottish makers who had been turning out high quality pistols were gone, although some hung on until the early 19th c. This pistol looks more Scottish than British military to me. The author says there are no markings and, had it been military issue there would have been proof and view markings and probably rack numbers on it somewhere. The English makers of pistols for the Scottish regiments, Bissell and Waters, marked their work and there was even some limited engraving on the Bissell. However, in the top view of the pistol in the Canan book, there is extensive floral engraving on the barrel - as you mention - and even the trigger protrusion through the slot in the grip has been filed. That, imho, is the mark of a civilian piece, not something that is military issue.

As for the pistol in the photos Henrik posted, I really question its antiquity. I see that Thomas MacDonald posted them originally and he seems to know his stuff, but this pistol is almost identical to the Indian made pieces. As I mentioned above, for awhile before the Indians began producing them, these guns were made in England. I have seen one of these pistols - at the Battle of Ramseur's Mill a few years ago - and, while it looks essentially like the Indian version, the finish is completely different, i.e. it looks exactly like the finish on the pistol pictured in the album. The other thing that makes me think it is not an antique is the lock. Bissell and Waters both used the "Highland Flintlock" which has a horizontally moving sear. The earmark for that type of lock is the portion of the sear which protrudes through a slot in the lock plate, which provides a half-cock position for the cock. That is absent on this gun. That style of lock was in use on guns for the civilian trade from the lobe butt style to the rams horn style pistols, although it was not found on the heart butt. Earlier snapaunce lock guns all had the "dog" safety protruding from the rear of the lock plate.

Several years ago I researched and wrote a book on 17th and 18th c. Scottish firearms. I looked far and wide for examples to use in the book, both civilian and military pieces. I never encountered a pistol like the one pictured in the album.

I am not saying that it is definitely modern-made. I merely conjecture that it could be.

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GG Osborne

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Posts: 487

Sun 07 Feb, 2010 3:45 pm

Lin, I for one completely agree. If the aforementioned pistol is authentic to the 18th century, I'm a monkey's uncle! The geometry opf the stock is all wrong and the ramshorn scrolls are way, way too thick. I would guess that this is a very ear4ly Indian made piece that has either acquired a patine over the last 20-25 years or has had some agent added to give it a more antique appearence. As far as it being a military piece, the military would never had opted for the design of the barrel. Nah...just doesn't feel right!

Glenn

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Brill Pappin

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Posts: 2 Location: Ontario, Canada

Fri 03 Mar, 2017 9:38 pm

Details on loads and proofing

I actually own of the the more modern Indian reproductions.
This one has been drilled and fired by someone, however it has no proof marks.

I got interested in what this was and the history of this gun :)
As a result, I have several questions that I'm hoping someone here might be able to help with.

I'm fairly new to flintlocks and black powder, so please excuse any questions that might be obvious to someone who has been interested in these guns for a while :)

The tag that was with is listed it as:
Doune Replica, Antique
Stirlingshire Style
52cal flintlock
198mm barrel

I discovered that it it was not an antique:
Made by: Rajasthan Armouries, Udaipur
Serial No. J/496
Date: 21.7.84

It's half cock mechanism is either poorly made (likely by tooling marks) or is worn out.

So I have a few questions that cover this reproduction, and Highland Pistols in general.
- What is the rough value of a gun like this?
- Does anyone know if Rajasthan Armouries makes proofed versions, or are they props?
- What were the typical loads for a pistol of this type?
- What was a standard proofing load for a pistol of this type?
- Would it be wise for me to fix the action on this one, so the half cock worked properly?

Now that I know this one is an unproofed reproduction, I'm not sure i will keep it, but I'm interested in the fact that it *has* been drilled, and fired.
There is no way I'm going to fire it without it being proofed first, but I guess now I'm on a quest to understand all I can about this particular pistol.

Any information would be helpful.

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Lin Robinson

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Posts: 1,241 Location: NC

Sat 04 Mar, 2017 4:32 am

Here is what I can tell you in answer to your questions.

1. The value of that gun, to me, would be zero. However, you might get a couple of hundred bucks for it if you decided to sell.
2. Nothing comes from India proofed. If they said it was proofed, I would not believe it.
3. I would not shoot anything but blanks in the gun.
4. There is no standard proofing load for this gun or guns like it.
5. If you try to repair it you will probably wind up destroying it. They are made from steel which is of unknown hardness and quality. The one I have does not allow the pan to close on half cock. The main spring so heavy and the lock geometry so poor that it busts a flint every two or three fires. It just is not worth the effort IMHO.

I speak from nearly fifty years of owning and shooting muzzle loaders of all kinds. I bought my Murdoch as a prop to carry at Highland games and I don't even use it for that any more. Look for something like those in the photo I have attached. I like them much better, although the bottom one isn't much of a gun either, compared to the one on top.

Good luck...

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Brill Pappin

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Posts: 2 Location: Ontario, Canada

Sat 04 Mar, 2017 8:48 am

Thanks, that's actually a lot of good information.

I can see that it is *not* proofed, but since someone seems to have taken the risk, drilled it, and fired it, I wondered if it might be worth getting it proofed. Which is sounds like it is not.

Fixing the mechanism is something else. I'm pretty good with that kind of work, so I'm confident I could do it without destroying the acton. In this case, the problem is a poorly shaped sear. The sear is shaped so that it rests on the tumbler in the half cock position, and does not fully seat in the half cock notch. Essentially, it has two firing positions, and all that would be needed is to slightly adjust the shape of the sear so that it seats properly.
(that is also a clue to it not being a proper firearm, the manufacturer didn't understand/care what they were making)

I think I will abandon this prop, and instead look for something that I can fire.
What would I expect to pay for one of these that I can fire?

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Lin Robinson

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Posts: 1,241 Location: NC

Sat 04 Mar, 2017 11:47 am

Brill Pappin wrote:

Thanks, that's actually a lot of good information.

I can see that it is *not* proofed, but since someone seems to have taken the risk, drilled it, and fired it, I wondered if it might be worth getting it proofed. Which is sounds like it is not.

Fixing the mechanism is something else. I'm pretty good with that kind of work, so I'm confident I could do it without destroying the acton. In this case, the problem is a poorly shaped sear. The sear is shaped so that it rests on the tumbler in the half cock position, and does not fully seat in the half cock notch. Essentially, it has two firing positions, and all that would be needed is to slightly adjust the shape of the sear so that it seats properly.
(that is also a clue to it not being a proper firearm, the manufacturer didn't understand/care what they were making)

I think I will abandon this prop, and instead look for something that I can fire.
What would I expect to pay for one of these that I can fire?

You are welcome. I am sorry to be so negative about this gun but I have looked at a lot of them and, as mentioned, I own one as well. There are a number of companies in India making replica firearms and the quality varies but, in general, none of these firearms favorably compare with those made by some of the Italian and Spanish makers and certainly not to custom made pieces, like the two I posted above.

As far as proofing, one of the larger retailers of these guns, I won't say which because I cannot remember for certain, used to provide instructions for proofing them yourself. I don't think they are doing that any more, possibly on the advice of counsel. I consider that a highly dangerous practice, and unless you have an expert to work with you or have done it for years, don't try it.

Deepening the half-cock notch in the tumbler would be better than re-shaping the sear, IMHO but if you are not going to fire it I wouldn't make the effort.

If you are looking for an all-metal Scottish pistol to shoot, then all I can say is good luck finding one. The Rifle Shoppe offers a kit with all the parts needed to assemble a shooting pistol but they are rough cast, the frizzen and lock internals will need hardening, etc. and unless you have experience then it will be a tough one to complete. There are some builders who will put the kit together for you, for a fee, but I do not have any names at this time. Another problem is the Rifle Shoppe itself. They can take a very long time to deliver the parts, years even, according to a lot of online discussions. Their stuff is top quality however.

I know there are some custom makers out there, building these pistols, I just do not know who they are and there are apparently very few. My custom maker is not building the all-metal variety, although I am sure he could if he wanted to so I had to settle for that very nice 16th century snaphaunce in the photo above.

Best of luck in your search and if you find somebody doing this work, please post it on the forum.

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