I have long been entranced by the fabled Damascus steel and while I am neither a smith nor a metallurgist I read everything I can get my hands on that relates to it. From various sources I understand that the secret to true Damascus is in fact nano-technology. There are evidently carbon nanotubes embedded in the steel that help to explain its fabled strength. What is not known is the origin of this carbon. Some speculate that it was part of the original iron, the Wootz and was wholly natural, others say it could have been some process, now lost, in the production of the steel.

Then earlier this week I came across this article http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/09/06/28/2...en-Storage on slashdot. It seems that carbonizing chicken feathers produces a carbon nanotube that would fill the role quite nicely. Now like I said, I am no expert, just curious. So what do you all think? Could this be done? And how?

There have been several researchers who looked at actual mechanical properties. You can compare the micro structure of the grain to "nano tubes", but it is really a case of unstable precipitation of hard carbides. These corrode unevenly at the cutting edge, and make the blade perform like a micro serrated saw. Mechanical tests of modern replica efforts of wootz and exquisite pattern welding, Russian bullat, ect, have yet to yield overall properties much better than 60 to 70% of plain carbon spring steel (SAI 1075 through 1090.) That said, I am still a fan of the materials as one who uses them regularly for their slicing performance.

My latest knife made for me by a local maker from my own material...attached.

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Just look at this research by dr. Mader

http://www.schwertbruecken.de/english/starte.htm

Damascofusion and nanowires

Also, have non-Damascus blades been tested for nanotubes? I haven't seen anything to indicate that.

And campfires produce nanotubes. Not in a useful manner but certainly detectable.

So more work would be needed to demonstrate that these tubes are unique and/or contribute to the swords properties.

Cheers,
Steven

Sirs- Since damascus steel was discovered by the Han Chinese,Who had been using blast furnaces since c. 800bce to work bronze, who had discovered the Seimans-Martin process and puddling by c.150 bce, who could pour three ton pours by c.100 bce and had armed their Whole Army with wootz steel weapons and arnour, by which they conquered all of Asia up to Iran,I think we got sone academic B,S, (not even a masters) by somebody fishing for a grant. After all, Dr Anne Fuerbach over on Ethnographic Arms and Armour got one, and she thinks wootz was invented in southern India or centrsl Asia (Bulat) My citatons are listed under Ferrous Metalurgy in Han China. (sorry, being thchno-stupid, I can't make this page show the relavent links. You'll just have to trustt me or fish 'em out by the title of the page.)

im no metalurgist or anything but i just thought what if the steel used to create damascus weapons was formed in long ingots at lest 2 feet long for say in sheets of it say as thin as modern day aluminum foil. into ingot holders with small "valleys"etched into it and then they would continue to make these "sheets of steel" then after they had plenty they would layer them and heat them to a temperature where the atomic bonding prosses is possible but NOT HOT enough to totally melt the metal sheets closing off the the small tubes and indentations made in the steel during the foundry process. But enough to constrict the tubes make a long metal ingot that they would procede to make a sword or other from. Im not any blacksmith or such but if someone could find a way to attempt this and see if its possible. if it works im preety sure it would be a great help to many blacksmiths out there. feel free to take this as your own idea.

In the '80s and '90s there was a lot of interest in ultra-high carbon super-plastic steels, for making things like turbine blades. This led to some "re-creations" of Damascus steels, very high carbon steels worked at red-heat to control the size of cementite grains. There are applications of research on sword steels outside swords.

You asked the critical question: "Where are you going to find a market for this?". If the market is sword-buyers, how will it ever pay?

Is the sword market large enough for patents to be worthwhile?

Hi Timo

Quote:

Consider that candle flames make nanotubes, and there is no baking at high temperature for a long time, just lots of carbon and high temperatures for a short time.

There were caverns full of pots baking components for quite awhile between firing and cooling off. Modern "wootz" is made today in much the same fashion but in smaller quantities (like one pot at a time), All day and noght, as with so many old time steel production. Another example the Africans with the pit and a circle of tuyers, and another large batches in a tatara. All of these were anything but what modern crucible production is like in production time.

Not really worth arguing about though, I know what I have read and perhaps others will do some reading on the subject. for themselves.

Cheers

GC

I enjoyed reading the meandering posts on this subject.

The metallurgy of the sword generates much interest.
It *is* important! It gives us an understanding of the material the sword is made of by giving us numbers that quantify the toughness, wear resistance and hardness of the steel in a very handy manner. The danger is that this makes it easy for us to think that the sword itself is as simple to quantify and discuss.

*But* the metallurgy is still just *one* aspect of many equally important aspects in the making of a sword.
It is very good to strive for better knowledge of the metallurgy of the sword. It is of critical importance even, but equally important is the understanding of other aspects of its design.
By focusing on the metallurgy, we are easily led into questions like: what would make the most durable edge? or what is the strongest sword ever?

While these are questions that are fun to bounce back and forth, they do not really help broaden our knowledge of the sword or deepen our understanding of its function, use or development. A little bit, yes, but we will not se the whole picture and we might easily misunderstand some major factors that ahas driven the development of the sword through history. We may be fooled into believing that an understanding of the sword could be equally easy to quantify and put numbers on.