While I know that there is little to nothing on the actual martial art of turkish/arab/persian warriors, I was wondering if there was any knowledge (or conjecture) on this at all. Or is thereany good information on the curved swords they used (shamshirs, saif, kiliji, etc.)

well I've seen this discussion before and It seems that despite the muslim literature that was produced at that time (quite a lot) they didn't make any fight books. It makes sense to me since in Europe you had large groups of mercenaries who would be trained in fight schools.

What about the mamluk military manuals? The "Munyatu'l-Guzat" is one of the best, most detailed medieval cavalry manual. The "Excellence of the bow and arrow" is one of the best eastern archery manual. There are several writings about wielding the lance, practicing with the sword, etc. The middle-eastern peoples wrote a lot of "fight books", indeed.
The elite core of the muslim armies were trained in "schools", like the mamluks, or janissaries.
Check out deremilitari.org for other articles about strategy, warfare...

A guy named Manouchehr Khorasani is working on translations of martial arts manuals from medieval and early modern Iran. He also wrote the definitive book on Iranian weapons. He posts on SFI from time to time.

I remember hearing of manuals for mameluks from Egypt, but I've never run across one.

I know this is getting a bit off topic but didn't christens burn the great library, not muslims.

Folks,
Let's not start attacking each other. Feel free to debate ideas, but leave the personal attacks off this site. Thank you.

Ignoring some very rude (and I think fundamentally errored) attacks, I did not know thatwe have surviving saracen and mameluke fight books. I was aware that they had books on how tactics on strategy but I din't know that any of it was on personal combat. Would anyone be so kind as to link me to some of them.

Hi

i know that Manouchehr has written numerous articles on pesh kabz, qame, shamshir and such...with photo's of miniatures..(they are scenes decribing techniques ) and translations of the words... there is a good amount of info and its a very exciting field
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- there is even gyms that train for fitness and combat... zurkhaneh !! this still exists today... .. ..

its a very interesting culture and i'm sure you enjoy doing research on it..

Greg

An interesting text. I'll have to look into that.

Perhaps also we ought to stay away from characterising one people or ethnic group or nation as being more or less 'advanced' than another, militarily or otherwise, and instead appreciate each one for its unique traits, in this case, Middle Eastern martial-art manuals. If we must compare, perhaps it would be better to look for similarities rather than differences. Even if one is more 'advanced' than other (the definition of 'advancement' is a knotty issue in itself), it may be helpful to remember that that is far from a guarantee of total military superiority. I believe Sun Tzu has a warning against relying on weapons (and by extension, military technology) to win.

Try not to missunderstand what I am abou to say, as I have no racial or ethnic (besides for subconcious bias) reaons for what I am about to say, but I think that using terms such as more advanced is perfectly acceptable when it is used appropriately. Not to take this thread to off topic but as ethnocentric this is about to sound (as a white american) I think classifying cultures as more advanced or more primitive, are accurate statements. A cultral withmore technology (like european over many tribal cultures, or chinese over just about everyone else) is more advanced by the meaning of the word, than one without.

However when one begins to attach racial or moral reasonsto this (european culture is more moral and europeans are better people who deserve to have the lands of natives, and it isok to exterminate them), then it becomes unhonest, unscholarly, and downright evil.

While new information is coming out on just how advanced medieval europeans were (as opposed to the older view as stupid), I still believe that muslim culture at the time was more advanced technologically in many fields (irrigation, aqueductswhich had disappeared in the west). I say this witout any racial (being mostly european) or political reasons for this view.

Oops, sorry, downloading the Munyatu'l-Guzat is illegal.:) You can order it here: http://www.eren.com.tr/goster/kitap/kitap.asp?kitap=193558

haha, thanx for trying to get me into prison, jk, but are these in english? I'm linguistically challenged.

Also you said that it talked about where to put your left and right hands on the lance, did saracens joust two handed?