My wife was reading a novel and the Indian Urumi made an appearance. It was being used by a villian in the novel. When she asked me about it, I had never heard of it before. She linked me to this Wiki article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urumi

It seems to be a rather interesting edged weapon evolution. I don't know anything more about it than what is in the article, but I imagine to become proficient in it's use takes a considerable amount of time and disipline. Mastering the flexible properties of the steel alone would be a challenge in itself, before ever thinking about making an attack or defense with it.

Does anyone have any more information on how this weapon is made, wielded, era in which it was developed, etc?

Thanks in advance for your input! :)

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Indian Urumi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzxtpg9HKbU

To the best of my knowledge, and the Wikipedia article backs this up, these are Indian weapons not Malaysian (Malayalam is an Indian language, not the same thing as Malay)

Thanks for the correction. I fixed it. :D

Thanks for posting the video. That is really quite impressive. I am glad my wife (who is not into swords and armor at all) pointed it out as a topic of interest. :D

Hi!

It was a while back, but I remember discussing these on this site a few months back. Try searching, because I can't remember what I said then.

I've seen these used in India, at a Kalari (Kalaripayattu gym) I visited. They are the highest level weapon in Kalaripayattu, and really awesome to watch. The ones I saw there were made from band-saw blades, and had as many as 9 blades on the same handle. Some had a mix of serrated and non-serrated blades.

They are also known as Chuttaval in other parts of India.

Looks like a dangerous weapon to learn and still have all of one's skin intact !

Sword ? Sort of reminds me more of a combination of whip and flail as the blades seem more like ribbons of spring steel that stretch out through centrifugal force but curl back up after a strike.

Well the handle seems sword-like and in motion there may be sword-like attributes.

The video is impressive but I imagine that a lot of it is rehearsed for show and done out of distance most of the time, although some of it does seem in distance and stopped by the shields. :eek: ( Well, better them than me, and I assume that it's very dangerous even as a demo ).

There are some points in the videos where it looks like the sword maintains a rigid shape - like the aformentioned tape measure. What makes me wonder is edge alignment. Do these guys actually get a slicing cut by purposefully aligning the cutting edge while spinning it or do they just flail the target and hope for the best cut at random?

It's definately different, that's for sure....

Those guys on the video aren't the most skilled Urumi I've ever seen.

I'm trying to think of the best way to say this...

Kalaripayattu is one of the very oldest martial arts in existence, and often thought to have heavily influenced the initial development of the Shaolin Chuan Fa group of martial arts... It's important to point out that Chuan Fa is pronounced Kempo in Japanese, and that the Chuan Fa group includes Silat and Karate-do.

And the Urumi/Chuttaval is only taught to and practised by the most skilled practitioners of Kalaripayattu... It is worn concealed as a belt and is feared by everyone who knows what it is. I've seen it thrust right through a leather shield, and cut a apple in near-perfect halves.

An awesome and superior weapon, and one that doesn't get enough attention, possibly due to being so dangerous to learn.

O.k. it is late here, and I sometimes am not as diplomatic when sleepy as I perhaps should be, so if anyone gets offended please assume I am playing devils advocate.

Myomoto Musashi describes certain schools of marrtial arts as being full of "flowery bullshit" (translational difficulties and all that) and says that unless you are stiking to the point of killing your oponent then you arent engaged in "real" martial arts. I myself am not as ridgid in my outlook, but he earned the right to his view imho. I myself think that there is a lot to be said for the cultural heritage of certain martial arts, but just because it is a martial art does not mean it is effective, though it may be elegant, beautiful etc.
If one looks at UFC or similar competitions ine sees a lot of judo/sambo/jujitsu, a lot of boxing/kickboxing/muay-thai and a fair bit of greco roman wrestleing. Crane style and Cotton Fist Kung Fu? not so much. This is not to say these are not good martial arts, merely that they are involved in a diferent part of the spectrum. If you want to learn to beat the mashugena out of some Joe, learn kickboxing and sambo. If you want to engage in the graceful and calming paterns of Cotton Fist, learn that.

I cant help thinking that the Urumi might fall into the catagory of "novelty weapon" that , after 10 years of training the most skilled practitioners are as efective with as a guy who has been learning Arnis escrima for a year. The achievement is far greater, and the 10 year master deserves serious kudos and respect, but it might be going a bit far to heap praise upon it. Someone somewhere at one point said "swords are cool, nunchucks are cool,... what we need are SWORDCHUCKS!", but not many people seem to use them. Usually if soemething is obscure, there is a pretty good reason why, if it worked, everyone would use it.

Then again, I am no expert, so maybe they really are the cat's pajamas

Hi,
considering how many times I've hurt myself when unfolding a clock spring or removing a steel strip from a box or a pallet, that's typically the kind of toy I must avoid like plague ;)

Does everyone also know of the Chinese 9-section-whip? This is used in a very similar way to a Urumi/Chuttaval, and is considered by many Chinese Martial Artists to be the PERFECT counter-weapon to a dao or jian.

I have one, and know how to use it a little, but I must've smacked myself upside the head, on the elbow, knee, etc., with that thing at least 1000 times learning how.

And in regards to Nat Lamb's earlier statement about the difference between, say, Jujutsu and Crane Fist... let's use Sakuraba Kazushi as an example. Now this guy dominated Pride MMA Events when he first started there, even defeating 3 (or was it 4?) of the famous Gracie Family. So much so that they had to change the rules before he was defeated.

And his martial arts pedigree? PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING.

Another thing, Crane Fist has fatally defeated more people than Jujutsu has. By a very, very large margin. One of the original five animal styles, with a history of at least 1600 years... Tang Dynasty Pirates spring to mind for instance. "Destroy the Qing, Restore the MIng" does as well... Boxer Rebellion... The Japanese War...

It's the fighter, not the style.

Before you start to shower Muay Thai with praise at it's superiority in a stand up fight, look up Burmese Lethwei.

And something with as long a history as Kalaripayattu will have created hundreds, if not thousands of invincible fighters. Add into the equation the huge population India has now and has always had, and we may find that Kalaripayattu has created hundreds of thousands, maybe even a million awesome fighters. Something that old doesn't survive for no reason...

thousands of invincible fighters?
o.k. then, I take it back.

Snide comments by myself asside, I acknowledge that old doesn't survive for no reason. Highland dancing is not quite that old, but it is kinda old, but it's survival is due to cultural tradition (which is a good thing) not its combat dominance (Look out, he's dancing at me with his arms by his sides, RUN!)

Also I did not mean to imply that Thai kickboxing was the "best" martial art, merely an effictive one. Having had my ribs broken by a practitioner I am happy to say this. My understanding (I am not a huge ufc fan) was that it was a popular style to learn kicking and certain standing graple techniques for the mixed martial arts crowd
And I checked out my local Lethwei training place... it advertises itself as "Similar to Thailand's Mauy Thai", so I am not really sure what your point was

Are you telling me that in all of the martial arts there aren't things that you would not describe as "novelty weapons" ? I have hung around a lot of martial artists and the 1 thing I have learned is that the first thing you learn in any martial art is the "hyperbole kata"

It's probably a safe statement to make that the urumi is the most awesomely effective concealable octuple edged long blade ever. That does seem to be the main strength, that it's concealable. You'd probably have a hard time getting through mail with it, just as you'd probably have a hard time blending into a crowd at the market with a great sword slyly tucked into your pants. Different tools for different purposes.

An interesting weapon. I wonder how one controls it so that the edge comes into contact on impact rather than the flat. Also, none of the videos I watched showed it cutting/slicing anything. Someone needs to pick one up and get a side of beef to try it out on.

I have been pondering this weapon, and I imagine the damage would be like multiple severe razor cuts. God forbid you manage to get it wrapped around a neck or limb. I'd get one and try it out, but even if I were wearing full harness, I'd still be terrorfied of it. :eek:

It would probably be like the time I tried to learn three-section staff. Even with a foam one, I bludgeoned myself constantly. I tried the waxwood one ONCE and sang soprano for a week.... :\

But, if someone wants to get one and try a cutting test with it, I will Paypal them a donation of $10 for medical gauze and neosporin....seriously....

Maybe some weapons have an incredibly steep learning curve so that few can master it but those who do have a very impressive fighting system ( Could be the best weapon or fighting system, but I'm avoiding that discussion as it can easily become futile and opinionated ).

I'm assuming that this weapon is very effective in trained hands but it must have weaknesses that may not be obvious to someone having to fight against it without any prior experience with it or against it.

Against armour the blades may not have enough weight to make an impression as I'm guessing that they are dangerous because of sharpness and/or speed: In a warm/humid climate like parts of India it is most likely that little or no body protection would be worn except by warriors prepared for imminent battle.

Not sure if parrying of any kind would work with this weapon except for pre-emptive strikes taking the place of any parries as well as moving rapidly out of the way or using a shield or buckler as in the video.

So basically a Topic like this is most useful if we learn from others who know how to use it or at least know in theory how it's used to explain some of this to us who haven't a clue except for having watched the video clip: Getting side tracked into discussions about MMA seems like going off Topic to me and not adding to our understanding of a strange but fascinating weapon. ;)

[quote="Nat Lamb"]thousands of invincible fighters?
o.k. then, I take it back.

Snide comments by myself asside, I acknowledge that old doesn't survive for no reason. Highland dancing is not quite that old, but it is kinda old, but it's survival is due to cultural tradition (which is a good thing) not its combat dominance (Look out, he's dancing at me with his arms by his sides, RUN!)quote]

as I understand it, Nat, highland dancing, in it's martial form, was outlawed by the brittish, so the Scots started dancing with their arms to their sides. it evolved from a martial form with a dancing exercise to a "pure" dance.