Hi

I'm a medieval and fantasy wargaming enthusiast, and Im just wondering about sheild designs. Please see the attached picture

Can anyone suggest for what sensible reason would crescent shaped holes be made in the top of shields? For archers etc?

I'm using the Umbo of these shields as 'Crux Saltire', but wondering how to divide the shields into various divisions in an army (eg Polearm, Archers, Sword infantry, etc)

Any suggestions would be great!

Bowing to your knowledge...

---

 Attachment: 60.2 KB

Uh. How would an archer hold such a shield? How would a guy with a polearm hold a shield? It makes no sense.

The form and shape of a shield is dictated by the method in which it was used.

The metal is lighter than steel. it is fantasy...

BTW - Im a little Dyslecix - Shields i and e... :wtf:

I'm thinking crossbows for the archers, not bowmen.

I don't think you understand. Weight has nothing to do with what I asked.

How does a person who is using a polearm hold a shield? The answer is that they cannot.

How does a person who is firing a bow use a shield? The answer is they cannot.

Crossbowmen used particular types of shields that are free-standing in which to hide behind. They look nothing like the shield forms you show above. How does a person use a crossbow and hold a shield? They can't.

The polearms Im thinking are not long swiss-style Pikes, but more the shorter halberds and really about the length of short spears with blades at the end, to still be used in formation

Did Crossbowmen shields have some sort of stand?

Im wondering if its possible to pick up the shield to use in skirmish, flip out a leg and put it down, secure, to crouch and fire from behind?

(Im quite naive about the real history of some of these weapons)

Is there any good military reason for those holes you can think of?

Marcus M Smith wrote:

Is there any good military reason for those holes you can think of?

Why don't you start by reading our article:

[ Linked Image ]
The Shield: Its Use and Development
An article compiled by Patrick Kelly

And read this topic: 15th Century Pavises.

The shields shown above in your first post are fantasy items, as you say. There is only one of them that vaguely resembles something from history. However, it really isn't like the real thing at all.

Shields like these were made for the tournament and have cut-outs for the lance:

[ Linked Image ] [ Linked Image ] [ Linked Image ]

Ive just borrowed some books and thanks for the website so Im going to do some reading but its just nagging me about those crescent holes so if you can think of anything that would be great.

Gotta get back to work

Cheers

Archers and polearm-men can have shield hanging on guiges around the neck, in the same fashion as mounted knights, who have this kind of suspension so that they can have one hand free for the reins.

This works ok for polearms, but probably not very vell for archers. I have fought quite a bit with polearms and a shield on the shoulder, but for archery it would probably be to much in the way. (though arab horsearchers would carry shields, as far as I remember)

As for the question of cutouts, they are mostly found either on anticent hoplite-style dish-shaped shields, or on small tournament shields.
On the hoplite shields these are probably to compensate for the "exessive" width of the shield. In order to cover you propperly in a shieldwall, a shield has to be about 90 cm+ tall, but only 60 cm wide.The "excess" width can be in the way when for instance using a one handed spear, so a cutout would compensate for this. (so would an oval or, later, kite/heater shaped shield) The shields you show are "infantry heaters" and as such would not need a cutout.

The other kind is the small tournament heater. In this case my guess is that the cuttout is simply a view slith. The shield is attatched to the upper arm, and when the arm is raised, it covers the side of the head. However, this blocks your view. Unless you have the cutout...

Overall, the kind of shield you show CAN be supsended on the shoulder, but would not need cutouts.
But then you are a filthy chaos worshiper, and do no belive in logick. (and, sooner or later, Sigmar will strike you down...no matter the shape of your shield.)

I don't think they're for vision. I think they are a place for the lance to go. In fact, the article linked aboveby Nathan says:

Quote:

Towards the end of 14th century the top-right corner of the heater shield was notched. This allowed the shield to be used to guide the lance during mounted charge, likely during tournament jousting, but perhaps also on the battlefield.

Hungarian rider Tartschen had them sometimes. They were used as lance rests by their light cavalry.

Thanks guys

Vision is the best idea, but use for lances and spear rests in ashielfd wall coudl also work.

:-) Sigmar is a corruption of men's freedom. Only Chaos offers liberation..

is this for a chaos army or are you using the shields for conversions? i used to work for GW (RIP GW upper west side) and a compulsive converter.

Also, that particular symbol is the intelectual property of Michael Moorcock, if you are gonna produce anything with it on, you should gain his permission first. And btw, just because about 10 different games companies have been ripping it off for years does not make it any less the intellectual property of its origionator.

On the cutout, would it be feasable (not talking "is there any historical evidence" just is there a physical impedimment to) for a phalanx of polearm/spearmen to "lock" the spears into a cutout, and brace them a bit for a "pointy shield ruch" en masse? I have done a bit of 1h spear and shield in viking re-enactments (like, tried it on 2 different days) and I could see the spear was good for use against loose-ish formations of swordsmen, poking the guy 1 man over etc, but didnt feel like it would be that great in a real "push". A shield with a notch would allow you to at least brace it. Then again, the fact that there is no evidence of this being used probably means there is some reason it won't work. Just giving some "left field" theorizations

Lafayette: Well, if it was a GOOD idea, they would have gone on using shields with cutouts. I'm only stipulating why they would want cutouts in the first place. Obviously, it was not deemed to be worth it in the long run.

Seems I was wrong about the late heater cutouts, though they would have that function as well. The shields in question where not only used for jousting, but also in certain kinds of foot tournament featuring fully armed and armoured men, with spear, longsword, shield and dagger. This kind of fighting is depicted in Gladiatorial and Codex Wallerstein, at least.
It appears that they where equipped with a very flexible strap arangement, allowing them to be worn on the shoulder, under arm or held in a central grip (gathering the straps in one hand) as the situation called for.
I have been using a convensional shape heater on a cavalry suspension when fighting with a polearm on foot, and the idea of vison slits came from this. When standing in high guard with the spear, the shield (beeing strapped to your upper arm) covers your face.

-----
Come fight me like MEN !-Unknown Chosen Champion of Kohrne, no longer mounted on barded chaos steed
We don't have to! We're not 18 yet! -Liebhardt Albert Victor Freiherr von Macholt-Steilitz, Imperial Pistoller Corps

---

 Attachment: 113.76 KB
[ Download ]