Doug,
Thanks for the info. That's what I was looking for. I was pretty sure I wouldn't get anything concrete, but it's good to know that Scalini's date, while possible, falls outside of current thinking.
| Doug Strong wrote: |
| To date I have cataloged 175 authentic bascinets or visors, or portions thereof. In this process the dating is the most difficult. The dating of bascinets has lead to many fiery discussions.
Scalini's date may be correct but I suspect the early 15th century date may be more accurate. Scalini does have a tendancy to provide earler dates than most other armour schollars. 1385 is the traditional date for this helmet but the first decades of the 15th century date is the most commonly accepted date today. Make of it what you will. We will never know. |
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Wow Doug.thats great ! 175 bascinets ? ...and there must me more hiding in the more remote parts of East Europe..........you know it would be great to do up some sort of chart. I know a few who'd pay for a copy ( me included )
Cheers !
Merv
I'm working on finding a publisher for this book right now. I have about 600 pieces documented including 175 bascinets. The book is nearly 700 pages long. Finding a publisher willing to take on such a big project with all the photographic rights is the challenge.
i believe that the bascinet Nathan was talking about is dated to about 1385. by 1400-1410, most bascinets had plate armor gorgets. Also, by that date, most bascinet visors were more rounded and conical. here is a web address that shows the kind of bascinet used in the early 15th century: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http:/...nQMr7jifYO
that's the answer to Chad's question. Anyone want to argue? I'd love to hear it.
| Tyler Li wrote: |
| i believe that the bascinet Nathan was talking about is dated to about 1385. by 1400-1410, most bascinets had plate armor gorgets. Also, by that date, most bascinet visors were more rounded and conical. here is a web address that shows the kind of bascinet used in the early 15th century: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http:/...nQMr7jifYO |
Well, many museum folks and other armour scholars who've dated these helms for publication might disagree with you. :) Not that they're infallible, of course.
I think great bascinets were becoming more and more common in the first 2 decades of the 15th century, but English brasses and effigies still show mail aventails occasionally into the 1420s.
An earlier date may very well be likely, but most people I know are hesitant to state things as definitively as you are simply because there is so much uncertainty. Some people may want to debate you on your statement. I thinking "arguing" is too strong a term. :)
Tyler,
Please take this in the spitrit is is intended but wWhat your are espousing is one of the great fallacies of armour. 1400 is not a magic line in the sand. i.e. before 1400 we have "14th century armour" and afer 1400 we have "15th century armour" Like anything changes were gradual and some of the best loved surviving "14th century armour" actually may date from the shiny side of 1400.
That sweeping form of bascinet is very difficult to date. However I tend to think it was a bit later than has commonly been believed.
Please take this in the spitrit is is intended but wWhat your are espousing is one of the great fallacies of armour. 1400 is not a magic line in the sand. i.e. before 1400 we have "14th century armour" and afer 1400 we have "15th century armour" Like anything changes were gradual and some of the best loved surviving "14th century armour" actually may date from the shiny side of 1400.
That sweeping form of bascinet is very difficult to date. However I tend to think it was a bit later than has commonly been believed.
| Doug Strong wrote: |
| Tyler,
Please take this in the spitrit is is intended but wWhat your are espousing is one of the great fallacies of armour. 1400 is not a magic line in the sand. i.e. before 1400 we have "14th century armour" and afer 1400 we have "15th century armour" Like anything changes were gradual and some of the best loved surviving "14th century armour" actually may date from the shiny side of 1400. That sweeping form of bascinet is very difficult to date. However I tend to think it was a bit later than has commonly been believed. |
That is very true. i will have to admit that there could be a bascinet with a chain aventail well into the late 1300s and 1400s. I guess people still liked the chain aventail because of it's flexibility. However, most versions at this time period had more rounded visors.
| Tyler Li wrote: |
| That is very true. i will have to admit that there could be a bascinet with a chain aventail well into the late 1300s and 1400s. I guess people still liked the chain aventail because of it's flexibility. However, most versions at this time period had more rounded visors. |
How do you know that for sure? A major source of info for the time period, brasses and effigies, tends not to show visors at all--it would obscure the face of the person being memorialized.
| Tyler Li wrote: |
| That is very true. i will have to admit that there could be a bascinet with a chain aventail well into the late 1300s and 1400s. I guess people still liked the chain aventail because of it's flexibility. However, most versions at this time period had more rounded visors. |
Please go back and do some research.
Round visors are becoming popular at this time but the conical form was still a VERY popular form. By the second decade and into the third the rounded visor was very much a fashion statement. They are common in the circa 1410 images from Christine de Pisan manuscripts for example. However, at 1400, the conical form is all over contemporary art.
Your assertion about "there could be a bascinet with a chain aventail" is wildly off. I have over 1500 images of monumental effigies from 1200-1450 arranged in chronological order by date of creation (not death date). In this group the earliest plate neck defense on a bascinet dates to 1410. while there a probably some that are on earlier effigies, it simply was not yet common. However, from 1410 on the number of mail aventails quickly drops off and they are rarely seen after 1420 on knightly effigies, though they certainly were in use on the battlefield by less well off warriors.
The latest date I have for a mail aventail on an effigy is quite surprising. It is found on the effigy of Johannes Von Katzenelnbogen and dates to 1444! In all other respects Johannes is outfitted as you would expect a mid century German knight to be. He has a Kastenbrust with a deep fauld and pointed tassets, mitten gauntlets, as well as typical arms and legs for the period. With all the rest he has a bascinet with mail avential with a visor hinged centrally above the brow. Because it is flipped up in the open position we can only see the inside of the visor but it appears to be bluntly conical.
While Johnannes is an outlier he is not alone. We can also see several other (mostly German) effigies including Konrad von Brandscheit (1438) , Sybold Von Loenstein (1433), Conrad von Bickenbach (1429) and Ralph Neville (1425)
That is nice. Is it the work of Per Lielund Jensen?
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