I apologize if this is in the wrong spot :\

Is it possible to swim in armor? such as plate or mail with all the trimmings, I'm thinking Europe and Byzantium from 500-1690 A.D

I took a Scuba Diving test that required me to tread water with 5 lbs in each hand and for a minute. It was very challenging. I barely managed to keep my face above the waterline but managed to pass. The key was making large scissor strokes with the legs. I think with 20 to 30 lbs of armor I would have gone straight to the bottom. Gambson will also weigh 10 lbs when soaked. I don't think a soaked gambson will add weight while in the water, but it will effect getting out of the water.

I figured that I'd add a bit here, both as a SCUBA diver and as a physicist. I've been in similar tests as the one that Vassilis described, and I have to add that it is very difficult. However part of the problem is distribution. I've taken off my gear and swam with a weight belt, which is hard, but not as hard as with the equivalent weight in hand.

I personally don't think that I'd be able to swim in 20-30 lbs. of armor, and wouldn't be particularly keen to try. But whether or not it is possible is largely dependent on the individual and situation. The fatter you are, the easier it would be, it would be easier in salt water than fresh, and you may get air trapped in the armor and padding which would add buoyancy. If everything works just right, it might be possible to swim in 20-30 lbs. of armor, but I wouldn't want to try.

This ryu teaches swimming in armor http://www.tsuki-kage.com/kobori_ryu.html. Although it's not swimming as much as stepping in water (and, it seems, with partial armor). Japan being an archipelago, it was a very useful skill I suppose. There are still twelve traditional schools of swimming in japan, but I don't know if many teach swimming in armor. I don't know either if other cultures had anything alike, but from what I know armor and water was never something that naturally mixed well.

There are a few accounts describing men drowning because of the weight of their armour. Though it is possible that they couldn't swim in the first place. I'd agree that it would be very difficult. It is hard enough to swim when fully dressed.

It is possible to make an experiment.And it won't be very dangerous I suppose.All I need is to find a swimming pool not deeper than 1,40- 1,50m and take one or two people as the assurance(best would be lifeguards ) standing in the water-ready to help .I used to be a lifeguard myself and maybe I 'll try to do it .but I don't think they let me go to the swimming pool with armour :p I have a small and very shallow pond, but you'll have to wait till spring ;)

Japanese armor was partially made from wood - so you might be able to stay afloat.
There is not question about European armor - it was not made for swimming.
You can do a lot of things in armor bending, jumping and running. I have seen people doing cartwheels in armor as well, however staying afloat without any flotation device is out of the question.

Here you go.. :D

Swimming in Maille...

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/fireandsteel/swim.htm

Hmmm.. a shield is mostly wood an't it?

good flotation device?

I thought about it some more. Most of the ability to stay afloat comes from the air in your lungs, not the moving of your arms and legs. I am sure we have sneaked up to a friend who was floating and pushed them under water. I find that it takes very little effort to get a free floating person under water. That tells me that most people have a natural buoyancy that is very close to the tipping point were they would sink. Small increases in weight seem to make a big difference to a person trying to float. They have to work harder with their arms and legs at creating lift which tires them out.

I did a quick google search that tells me that the the human lungs average a little more then a gallon of air. Lets say 1.5 gallons because we are big strong guys. On gallon of water is 8.33 lbs. It seems that most men will loose buoyancy with an additional 12.5 lbs of weight.

We should also not underestimate the panic factor. Six foot tall people have managed to drown in 4 feet of water. Drowning people tend to pull others down with them too. They panic and grab onto anyone around them who is still floating. Duel drownings are very common.

it might also depend on the person, I do not swim well, just treading water is Very hard for me. I have low body fat and if I take a deep breath and just relax I sink, most people can float doing that.

Well, when I used to dive, we required 1lb of weight per 10lbs of body weight to achieve neutral buoyance - depending on your equipment, give or take a couple lbs. I used to use about 15lbs of weight and it was very difficult to stay surfaced with out the BCA on.

Additionally, while stationed in Hawaii, swimming/treading water in uniform for extended periods of time was part of the Light Fighter's training. It's pretty difficult with just the uniform, helmet, and LBE/LBV on even in a shallow pool.

With 40-50lbs, I would think this would be impossible for most. It brings to mind all the soldiers that died during the Normandy beach landings in WWII. Probably a pretty good reason why so many collectible swords are river finds.

Xan Stepp could you rerun those calculations for 15% body fat for both salt and fresh water. 15% bodyfat is about what I have and I can tread water for about 1 minute holding 10 lbs ( 5 in each hand). I do have a 48" chest through that can probably hold a little more air then average. You might have to off-set that with my denser bone and muscle. Thanks for your effort.

Vassilis,
First of all, the "ideal person" used in the calculation was at 15% body fat. I did rerun the math given a 9 L lung capacity and a 10 lb load. It puts your density at about 1.011 g/cm^3, so enough to sink in fresh water, but enough to float in salt. However, I couldn't off sett for denser muscle or bone, doing so would introduce one too many variables.

I must also point out that this situation does not fall into any of my "swimming" categories. Here you keep your head above water for an extended period of time without using your arms, which is not quite the same as floating on your back just keeping your face above the water or going underwater for periods but bringing your head above the surface momentarily for breaths of air.

However, your data may be useful for defining a "Vassilis condition" in that we know that just the legs can keep you afloat if your density is just 0.011 g/cm^3 above the density of the fluid. With this in mind, reran the math for the "Vasilis condition."

15% Body fat
Max Load - 4.5kg (fresh)
6.5kg (fresh)

10 lbs ~ 15% fat (fresh)
NA (salt)
20 lbs ~ 44% fat (fresh)
33% fat (salt)
30 lbs ~ 58% fat (fresh)
48% fat (salt)

So, it looks like we reach the same conclusion here, that "swimming" according to the "Vassilis condition" is probably manageable in light armor, but much more difficult with a heavy load unless you are morbidly obese. Also, you do have to wonder if someone who has over 50% body fat would even have the endurance to keep treading water.

I hope this helped Vassilis.

Thanks Xan Stepp, it is very interesting the way these calculations are working out.

Don't the US Marines require their recruits to be able to stay afloat with all their gear as part of their training? A full load of modern military equipment is pretty equivalent to the weight of armour for an average person.

Maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

the density of kevlar is ~1.44 g/cm^3, that is let's say 1.5 times that of water. The density of steel is about 8g/cm^3 , circa 8 times that of water. That means while in water, the same amount (by mass) of kevlar adds much less dead weight to the swimmer than steel.

Note however, that I still think that for a good swimmer it should be possible to swim in full armor. It is also fairly possible for a not so good swimmer to drown without any armor. I'm not sure to what extent did medieval people know how to swim, but according to some accounts, which might be pure fiction as I can't really recall from where I have this info, some, if not most of the 17-18th century sailors couldn't swim. Would it make sense for ground bound people in the 15th century to know how to swim?

Sources of density valus used in this post:
http://composite.about.com/od/aboutcomposites...050597.htm
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2004/KarenSutherland.shtml