Hello Gents,
A quick question, I saw a sword and was intrigued, but question if it is a noted fact that leaf blades were used by the migrating peoples of western Europe during this time or after?

Ken

If you mean roughly 300 to 700 A.D. as the migration era, the common sword form among Germanic migrating tribes was the basic spatha (straight edged.) Some of the Mainz Gladius early in this period do have a slight waist region that reminds me of a leaf blade. I am not sure when the leaf blade became rare in mainland Europe, but it is probably near the end of B.C. era. (diminishing of the LaTenes.) Celtic peoples near English Isles may have continued using the leaf blade form longer. It probably would not be that hard to research... I am interested in learning what others here who are fans of the leaf blade can tell us!

Check Peter Johnson's comments on primary history of the leaf blade in this post;
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=6021

Attached image is from Journal of Interdisciplinary Celtic Studies, volume 6, "War and Society in the CeltIberian World", Martin Gorbea and Alberto Lorrio. It shows the time frame of the Hispanic-Iberian long form of leaf blade to the West as being around 300 to 200 B.C.

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Leaf blades are LONG gone by the Migration era. In Western Europe they are mostly on their way out when the Iron Age starts, though Spain hung on a while longer. As mentioned, the Mainz style Roman gladius was in use into the first century AD, but I'm not sure if that is really considered a leaf shape. But it disappears well before the Migration era starts.

I'm not as familiar with Iron Age Ireland, but I'd be surprised to see anything remotely leaf-shaped there as late as 400 AD. (But I like surprises!)

Straight blades for the Migration era, with either parallel edges or tapered.

Vale,

Matthew

That's what I was thinking, but was waiting to be surprised. Thanks to those who posted so promptly, I would still like to hear others chime in..why is it do you think they were pushed to the way-side? Strictly a cultural thing or a change to something more functional? The sword I liked was an interpretation of a sword during the dark ages with a leaf blade and a Germannic hilt..Without actually posting a pic. that gives away everything as to who makes it. Is it ok to post a pic from the website?

Ken

There were some around in England near Romano-Brittish era (A.D.) I'm not sure this one ever made its way to a museum, but a hand drawn sketch (page 198 of the original text) in LLewellynn Jewitt's text "Grave-mounds and their Contents", 1870 shows a clear sketch of a leaf blade unearthed in Little Chester along with other objects (winged lance head etc.) making it debatable as existing into A.D. era., Roman occupation time frame. It would probably still fall short-early compared to migration era, but it is getting closer. The Roman town/ fort (Deventio) is believed to have begun around AD 55-57. So, the settlement grave find is likely A.D. anyway.

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Its interesting that a bronze age sword turned up in a Roman settlement area. (Obviously, they may not have been the first to bury someone in that spot though.) It definately looks to be Celtic in style, but, I did not know that they were in that location that early. I have the full manuscript of the excavation of the area. Its pretty thorough. The author considered that the grave and sword could have been earlier, but, not nearly that much earlier! The spear head described as being found in the same grave was described as made of iron.

The illustrations are of two spearheads found in the same grave. The top is iron, the bottom is bronze.

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It could be as simple as straight/narrow bladed swords proving more functional.
Intuitively, one would think that more weight in the striking end is a good thing, especially when you are used to blunt weapons and axes.
With swords, however, a point of balance further towards the hand is usually preferable, as it improves manouverability and speed. A propperly sharpened sword will be quite sufficient to kill even without beeing weighted like an axe, and dealing a heavy blow is only an advantage if the other guy doesn't hit you first.
Presumably, if leaf blades where a very good design, one would be seeing more of them across cultures and time periods.

One cannot forget the pugio, they lasted until at least the third century, although they may not qualify as swords...
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When did the pugio type dagger die out in the north, are there any 4th or 5th century examples?

There were separate machette-falccata like single edged weapons used by Germanic tribes from B.C. times through the beginning of the migration era, and even a pattern welded Merovingian one exists that has been referenced in posts about metallurgy several times here. http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2729 These have some narrowing of the profile near the hilt end, and flaring of the profile into a wider cutting edge near the CoP, as well as a scimitar like curve in many cases. They were more like long knives rather than the longer spathas. I am thinking these could have utilized the similar design advantages that you mention in the original leaf blades. Possibly, it's the migration era descendant of the older leaf blade concept. I have never had the chance to see an actual museum specimen.

awsome Guys!
A lot of info to digest and think about, I am not very knowledgable on this subject, hence my question. You all have responded with much and it is appreciated. If leaf blades are of a good design, why not keep it in production? Okay, so don't make long blades..make them as long as structurally possible. What is the reason now? This would still serve a purpose in close quarters battle up until heavy cavalry...right? Why the preference change? :\ I am the kind of person who would use something until it was no longer functional, especially if it served well for my purposes.

Ken